Author Topic: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture  (Read 21067 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2007, 06:25:52 PM »

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No, it really means your inferrence that I require others to follow suit in calling terrorists animals, is arrogant & egotistical

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Oh. Well, um, I didn't say you required others to do that. And I don't see where I implied that in what I said. And for the record, I did not infer that either.

For the record, "I do not believe deciding who does not get to be human is up to you"  sure appears so.


What part of that implies that you require everyone else to agree with you? You seem to have glossed over where I added, "Or me, or any other human being." So am I implying that everyone else must agree with you and me and any other human being? I wrote it, so I'm gonna vote... no. And since I wrote it, and already said I didn't infer that you require everyone else to agree with you or imply that you require everyone else to agree with you or say that you require everyone else to agree with you, can we please drop this pointless tangent? Please? With sprinkles and a cherry on top?
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gipper

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2007, 06:26:50 PM »
Johnny One Note (Prince): you'll never approach certainty in the real world -- has yet to disprove the efficacy of debating the absolutist position and, if that is decided for preemption, then how you go about titrating the circumstances under which torture not only would be allowed but required. I again recommend my recent questions as very helpful in clearing emotional if not mental baggage: Is torture qualitatively different from the horrors war imposes in normal course? If so, why? Please elaborate.

sirs

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2007, 07:52:36 PM »
For the record, "I do not believe deciding who does not get to be human is up to you"  sure appears so.

What part of that implies that you require everyone else to agree with you? You seem to have glossed over where I added, "Or me, or any other human being." So am I implying that everyone else must agree with you and me and any other human being? I wrote it, so I'm gonna vote... no. And since I wrote it, and already said I didn't infer that you require everyone else to agree with you or imply that you require everyone else to agree with you or say that you require everyone else to agree with you, can we please drop this pointless tangent? Please? With sprinkles and a cherry on top?

I will if you will
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2007, 11:49:28 PM »

you'll never approach certainty in the real world


Why not?


has yet to disprove the efficacy of debating the absolutist position and, if that is decided for preemption, then how you go about titrating the circumstances under which torture not only would be allowed but required.


Why do I need to disprove it? Please, feel free to debate completely unrealistic hypothetical situations. If you expect me to believe that such is going to result in realistic, real world solutions, you need to prove it to me, not I to you. And so far, other than just insisting over and over again that no, really, it will work if everyone else would just do it right, you haven't done a damn thing to illustrate the efficacy of debating your absolutist position or how you then go about hypothetically titrating the hypothetical circumstances under which torture not only would be allowed but hypothetically required.


I again recommend my recent questions as very helpful in clearing emotional if not mental baggage: Is torture qualitatively different from the horrors war imposes in normal course? If so, why? Please elaborate.


Possibly not, but then I don't much are for war either. Then again, it is not quite the same as facing an enemy on the battle field. The bound prisoner can't fight back, can't get out of the way, run for cover, do anything without becoming a traitor that might mitigate his circumstances. So, yeah, I'd say it is different.
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Universe Prince

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2007, 11:50:20 PM »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2007, 06:27:36 AM »

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That is not the sort of certainty Gipper was talking about. He said specifically "a hypothetical certainty of extracting reliable, actionable information from a known terrorist kingpin through interrogation". Again, such certainty only exists hypothetically. For torture in the real world, rather than the hypothetical world, such certainty is nowhere to be found.

No I am pretty sure that we have actually  captured some persons of known rank who we actually knew had knoledge of Al Queda resorces , personell and plans. Extracting this information produces a near certainty of stopping plans , a near certanty of saveing lives.


When it is certain that the subject has information that would save lives , it isn't worth a try to get him to divulge it ?

You're not getting it. The problem is not the idea that we might know for certain that someone is a terrorist or has information about terrorist plans. The problem is the idea that we could know with certainty that torture is going to cause the terrorist/prisoner to divulge honestly plans for terrorism. Gipper wants to claim the hypothetical certainty, but that certainty does not exist in reality. One might as well claim a hypothetical certainty that the prisoner will convert to Unitarianism. Yeah, it's possible, but not something we can count as a certainty in reality.

_JS

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2007, 09:39:39 AM »
Johnny One Note (Prince): you'll never approach certainty in the real world -- has yet to disprove the efficacy of debating the absolutist position and, if that is decided for preemption, then how you go about titrating the circumstances under which torture not only would be allowed but required. I again recommend my recent questions as very helpful in clearing emotional if not mental baggage: Is torture qualitatively different from the horrors war imposes in normal course? If so, why? Please elaborate.

Certainly you, of all people Domer, can see the qualitative difference in bringing harm (whether psychological or not) to someone who has been detained, disarmed, and removed from any contact with his/her people and those on a battlefield who are still armed and part of an organised resistence composing a legitimate threat (to self or others).

Note that I'm not a great fan of warfare either, but in this case if I apply your logic Domer, the situation would be akin to capturing a high ranking officer of the opposing military. He may or may not know further battle plans and other useful information, but as an individual he is no longer a threat.

And Prince is correct about your hypothetical scenario. Sure, you may torture the guy, or as you indicated - send someone else in to do your dirty work and leave you with a less stained conscience. Or, you could dehumanize him if that helps make you feel better. Regardless, you have no idea whether or not what he tells you (if he tells you anything) will be true or not. He may say something just to make the pain go away. And, if he tells the truth you have no idea whether or not his cohorts will still act upon it, knowing you have their ringmaster in captivity and the entire plot is compromised. The variables are many for even the most formulaic hypothetical scenario.
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gipper

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2007, 01:23:12 PM »
Both Prince and JS dodge the threshold question, the 0 or 1 that tells you whether to proceed with the inquiry: all things being controlled and the certainty of success guaranteed, should you torture a terrorist operative to effectively thwart a plan to kill a "shocking" number of people? If the answer is no, then just state your principles and be done with it. If the answer is yes, then proceed with the discussion.

I will say as well that JS's attempt to articulate the "qualitative" distinction between "normal course" war damage and torture is not only unconvincing and unsatisfying but virtually useless for purposes of analysis. Care to try again. The phenomenology of tortue can be explained, compared and scrutinized under principles. You haven't done it, JS.

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2007, 01:43:08 PM »
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Both Prince and JS dodge the threshold question, the 0 or 1 that tells you whether to proceed with the inquiry: all things being controlled and the certainty of success guaranteed, should you torture a terrorist operative to effectively thwart a plan to kill a "shocking" number of people? If the answer is no, then just state your principles and be done with it. If the answer is yes, then proceed with the discussion.

I thought I had answered this a while back. I cannot condone any action that undermines the dignity of human beings, be they innocent infants in the womb or the worst of offensive criminals.

Or to put it in your binomial terms - "No" (I'm not sure if that is a 1 or a 0, I'm not that good with computers).

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I will say as well that JS's attempt to articulate the "qualitative" distinction between "normal course" war damage and torture is not only unconvincing and unsatisfying but virtually useless for purposes of analysis. Care to try again. The phenomenology of tortue can be explained, compared and scrutinized under principles. You haven't done it, JS.

Hmmm, I thought I made it fairly distinct. I could make it more simple:

Do you beat the hell out of the alleged criminal once he is apprehended?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2007, 02:01:05 PM »
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I will say as well that JS's attempt to articulate the "qualitative" distinction between "normal course" war damage and torture is not only unconvincing and unsatisfying but virtually useless for purposes of analysis. Care to try again. The phenomenology of tortue can be explained, compared and scrutinized under principles. You haven't done it, JS.

Hmmm, I thought I made it fairly distinct. I could make it more simple:  Do you beat the hell out of the alleged criminal once he is apprehended?

No. 

And does one use whatever stressful techniques employable, both physical & psychological, that does not cause any physical damage, in order to extract information vital to preventing the death of scores of innocent men, women, & children, from a terrorist you have high confidence knows of such plot(s)?

That'd be a "Yes" from this poster
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2007, 04:19:16 PM »
And does one use whatever stressful techniques employable, both physical & psychological, that does not cause any physical damage, in order to extract information vital to preventing the death of scores of innocent men, women, & children, from a terrorist you have high confidence knows of such plot(s)?

That'd be a "Yes" from this poster

That's not really a surprise, is it? You've already stripped them of their humanity.

Having done that, why stop at physical damage? Where's the fuzzy line for you and Domer that the ends stop justifying the means?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Universe Prince

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2007, 05:24:47 PM »

Both Prince and JS dodge the threshold question, the 0 or 1 that tells you whether to proceed with the inquiry: all things being controlled and the certainty of success guaranteed, should you torture a terrorist operative to effectively thwart a plan to kill a "shocking" number of people?


This is getting repetitive. To point out the completely implausible nature and therefore uselessness of your hypothetical scenario is not a dodge. It is, in point of fact, a legitimate objection. You continue to fail to address this objection, and instead repeatedly complain that people are not answering your hypothetical the way you want. Take a deep breath, exhale slowly, and let it go. Your hypothetical is inoperative. Get over it.


If the answer is no, then just state your principles and be done with it. If the answer is yes, then proceed with the discussion.


I do believe that has been covered already. Let's move on.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2007, 05:32:33 PM »

When it is certain that the subject has information that would save lives , it isn't worth a try to get him to divulge it ?


I almost missed that question because you had it within the quote tags.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, of course trying to get him to divulge the info is worth a try. I'm not saying it isn't. Prisoners are interrogated all the time without resorting to torture.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2007, 05:49:19 PM »
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Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Does anyone remember that? Does it have any bearing on torturing or "stressing" prisoners with techniques like waterboarding? I think it does.

I know, right out of the gate, someone is going to tell me it only applies to American citizens. However, nowhere does it say anything about applying to only American citizens. In point of fact, its source document does not apply to citizens at all. It applies to the U.S. federal government. And if the key to torture, or "stress", being used to interrogate prisoners is the lives to be saved, then are you now going to argue that you would not also apply those same techniques to an American citizen, like, say, a Timothy McVeigh, to save lives?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 05:51:18 PM by Universe Prince »
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--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: We took lessons from the Soviets and Chinese on torture
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2007, 08:15:14 PM »
And does one use whatever stressful techniques employable, both physical & psychological, that does not cause any physical damage, in order to extract information vital to preventing the death of scores of innocent men, women, & children, from a terrorist you have high confidence knows of such plot(s)?  That'd be a "Yes" from this poster

That's not really a surprise, is it? You've already stripped them of their humanity.

Yes, I've managed to call a monster a monster.  I'm not sure why that's such a hard concept to grasp


Having done that, why stop at physical damage?

Because as I've alluded to since the beginning, I'm not like terrorists, who don't stop.  I'm not like terrorists who'll go to every conceivable end simply to cause the maximum amount of pain possible.  I'm not like terrorists, who'll use whatever instrument possible to scar and disfigure any part of the body.  I'm not like terrorists who'll think nothing of cutting someone's head off while they're perfectly awake to experience it.  Do I need to go on?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle