Author Topic: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants  (Read 12645 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2008, 04:24:59 AM »

Then why the report of the attack and then the claim that the govt was inciting violence?


The news articles mention the government making anti-immigrant comments. If people in the government denigrate the Roma and people act out in frustration at the Roma, and the government does little to stop it, does that mean the government isn't involved? A couple of articles I have read say the local mafia was involved and claimed to be following through on government anti-immigration policy. I suppose it depends on what you mean by incite. I know JS brought it up, but frankly, I think you've become more focused on it than he is.


Are you now saying they are unrelated?


No. I doubt my comment, "What we are seeing is a distrust (I'm being polite) of Gypsies that is institutionalized and entrenched" indicates I think there is no connection.


Downplaying is not an accurate description of my position.


Well, I see the articles talking about an immigration crackdown and the burning of a Gypsy camp, and you say "According to UP's reports the govt is rousting prostitutes and drug dealers". Huh.


I don't think your post provided enough information to form an opinion. I just don't see where you have made the case for cause and effect.


Okay. I guess I thought I was making the case that the people are to blame, for their own actions and for their government. Not sure how that gets the government off the hook. I guess it's sort of a "just following orders" only backwards.
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BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2008, 11:01:01 AM »
Quote
Quote from: BT on Today at 02:10:32 AM

I don't think your post provided enough information to form an opinion. I just don't see where you have made the case for cause and effect.


Okay. I guess I thought I was making the case that the people are to blame, for their own actions and for their government. Not sure how that gets the government off the hook. I guess it's sort of a "just following orders" only backwards.

The people may be responsible for the government they elect but i don't see how you have tied the peoples actions to the Govt being on the hook or for the govt following the mob's orders.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 12:04:34 PM by BT »

BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2008, 12:07:19 PM »
Quote
RD is clearly racist and that comes right out in his statements.

What race are the Roma's?

Is this another example of the misuse of the term?


_JS

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2008, 12:27:04 PM »
They are Roma.

And in fairness Bt, you are asking for your hand to be held on this.

Berlusconi's coalition is built on support from the Lega Nord. They were the ones who brought down his government before and without their support he loses his majority this time. So he's appointed a number of them to ministerial positions.

The leader of the Lega Nord is Umberto Bossi - he served in prison for inciting violence. While he served in cabinet in 2003 he ordered the Navy to fire on boats filled with immigrants. Read here.

Bossi is back in the cabinet again along with three of his colleagues. Quite a high percentage for a party that garnered only 8% of the vote (and a regional radical party at that).

Mario Borghezio, a former Monarchist but now one of the Fascists and a good pal of Bossi was once fined for beating a Moroccan child. He was also convicted of arson for setting fires in a vigilante raid on immigrants in Turin in 2005.



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Amianthus

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2008, 12:35:45 PM »
They are Roma.

The Roma people are descended from Hindi people; as such they are Caucasian, the same as most Italians.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2008, 12:42:23 PM »
If one examines the demographics of Hillary voters one could surmise that she attracts the majority of voters who can not support Obama, especially after the hammering he took for his associations with the "divisive and racist"  Rev. Wright.

Does that mean Hillary is a racist because she attracts possible racists to her cause?

Politics makes strange bedfellows.







_JS

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2008, 02:05:12 PM »
If one examines the demographics of Hillary voters one could surmise that she attracts the majority of voters who can not support Obama, especially after the hammering he took for his associations with the "divisive and racist"  Rev. Wright.

Does that mean Hillary is a racist because she attracts possible racists to her cause?

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Come on Bt, we know one another better than that.

Obviously politics makes strange bedfellows, but do you place blatant racists and Fascists, and violent offensive people into top government positions?

I mean, it is one thing when candidates take money and receive votes from bizarre people and organizations. It is quite another when they place those people in their cabinet. I know you see the difference.

The Roma are recognized as a minority in many European nations (possibly in the EU, I'm not sure of this). So I have no problem with my statement. They are officially recognized as a minority group. They have their own traditions, customs, songs, and even language that has existed for centuries (notably far longer than any of our ancestors has lived in America). This is what separates the Roma from the Travelers and should protect them.

RD can practice his free speech (though I'm not a huge fan of that), but why should he get shelter for making racist comments? Would you defend him for making the same comments on Jews? African-Americans? Might you have shown more outrage if this attack had taken place on whites in South Africa? One wonders.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Religious Dick

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2008, 02:57:03 PM »
RD can practice his free speech (though I'm not a huge fan of that), but why should he get shelter for making racist comments? Would you defend him for making the same comments on Jews? African-Americans? Might you have shown more outrage if this attack had taken place on whites in South Africa? One wonders.

Oh, shove it! The statement was no more racist than pointing out the Hell's Angels are bad news. I don't give a rat's ass what their ethnicity is, they're notorious throughout Europe such that anyone I've ever met that set foot on the continent that encountered them never had a good word to say about it. As someone who came from Europe, you must know  that as well as anyone else. I can only believe you're being disingenuous, especially when you singled out my statement as being "racist" when it was one of the milder ones in the thread regarding their behavior. Even the article that started this thread pointed out they were involved in criminal behavior.

Why I even bother dignifying such an ass with a response, I'm sure I don't know....
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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2008, 03:24:48 PM »
Does that mean Hillary is a racist because she
attracts possible racists to her cause?


Is it racist if Whites vote for Hillary because she is white
and then not racist if Blacks vote for Obama because he is Black?
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_JS

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2008, 03:54:04 PM »
RD can practice his free speech (though I'm not a huge fan of that), but why should he get shelter for making racist comments? Would you defend him for making the same comments on Jews? African-Americans? Might you have shown more outrage if this attack had taken place on whites in South Africa? One wonders.

Oh, shove it! The statement was no more racist than pointing out the Hell's Angels are bad news. I don't give a rat's ass what their ethnicity is, they're notorious throughout Europe such that anyone I've ever met that set foot on the continent that encountered them never had a good word to say about it. As someone who came from Europe, you must know  that as well as anyone else. I can only believe you're being disingenuous, especially when you singled out my statement as being "racist" when it was one of the milder ones in the thread regarding their behavior. Even the article that started this thread pointed out they were involved in criminal behavior.

Why I even bother dignifying such an ass with a response, I'm sure I don't know....

Two things:

1. Roma are not Travelers.
2. Your comment is again racist.

Not all Roma are thieves. That is a myth and blatant bigotry. The Roma have a storied history of music, art, and literature. What is really interesting is that the Italians of all people are throwing tantrums about them. The Roma population in Italy is very small and nothing compared to France, Germany, and especially Eastern European nations like Hungary. There are a lot of myths surrounding the Roma people and one of them concerns the kidnapping of white children (usually they then grow up to be Gypsies - of course it had more punch in medieval times when tracking caravans was far more difficult and people believed in "Gypsy magic").

There are Roma politicians, poets, authors, musicians, professors, filmmakers, and Olympians. What I find surprising is that people who claim to support "freedom" loathe a group of people who live by their own rules, customs, and traditions. That is really why European societies have always hated the Roma...they refuse to integrate. Hitler simply rounded them up and murdered them in the Holocaust. Stalin forced them into cities and into factories to work, and when they didn't he killed them (yet most of them still survived and lived a transient lifestyle).

People hate them because they don't buy a house and have 1.2 children and work from 9-5 every weekday. Most interesting.

Back to the point:



Here's Livia Jaroka. She's an EU MP from Hungary as well as a Roma. To my knowledge she's never been convicted of theft. Here's a story from her website that pertains to this discussion as well.

This is a good read for all of you: The Pariah Syndrome. The author is Ian Hancock, or more precisely - Dr. Hancock a professor at the University of Texas and also a Roma.



That guy there is Čedomir Jovanović. He was the Deputy Prime Minister of Serbia at one point and is now a Governor as well as a party founder. He was instrumental in turning Milosovic over to the west. Moreover, he helped set up the human rights tribunals and was the only major Serbian politician to officially recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Oh yeah - he's a Roma too.



This beautiful lady right here is Viktoria Mohcsi, an EU MP from Hungary and oh yes, a Roma as well.



This little lady here is a famous (in Europe) Polish pop singer and also a Roma.

Now, if you dealt with these folks, and this is a small sampling, then I'm supposed to believe that they will nick my wallet? Bullshit.

As I said, racism. Or bigotry if you prefer a different term.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2008, 04:05:40 PM »
People hate them because they don't buy a house and have 1.2 children and work from 9-5 every weekday. Most interesting.

Actually, this statement is just as racist.

In reality, most Roma do buy a house and have children who go to school and work regular hours.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2008, 04:19:14 PM »

In reality, most Roma do buy a house and have children who go to school and work regular hours.


Not that such stops people from hating them. Even popular football (soccer) stars believed to be of Gypsy blood get threats. These threats may not materialize into anything, but apparently some people hate the idea of Gypsies being on their home team.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2008, 04:23:48 PM »

The people may be responsible for the government they elect but i don't see how you have tied the peoples actions to the Govt being on the hook or for the govt following the mob's orders.


I think you did:

      

The Roma have been on the low end of the social stick for centuries.

Is Burlesconi a leader driving his country to a hate filled rage or is he simply a reflection of his people at this point in time.

Why is it when a Chavez is elected the people's will is done but when a Burlesconi is elected the sheeple have been mislead.

      
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Universe Prince

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2008, 04:31:51 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/21/italy.race

      The latest trouble began last week after a Roma woman had allegedly attempted to abduct a child near the Roma camp in the rundown district of Ponticelli. A mob attacked the camp, driving away 1,000 Gypsies living in and around railway arches. According to witnesses, members of the local Camorra family encouraged local people to join in the mayhem. Some local commentators have argued that the Camorra was merely implementing a more forceful version of the roundup of petty foreign criminals ordered by the government.

[...]

The identification of the Roma as the wellspring of crime has proved a useful diversionary tactic for the Camorra in advance of today's cabinet meeting. It has deflected attention from the real source of social chaos in the city: the Camorra itself.

[...]

The European commission is currently weighing up draconian penalties against Bulgaria for its failure to deal with organised crime and the influence it wields over public life. But when it comes to Italy, Brussels has always applied double standards. Cracking the whip over a weak accession state such as Bulgaria is easy. But the EU appears scared of threatening similar measures against Italy. If Berlusconi's government fails to adopt serious measures against the Camorra in Naples, the time has come for the EU to take as tough an approach to Italy as it does to Bulgaria. It is simply outrageous that Naples is suffocating under a blanket of smoke and xenophobia generated by an organised crime syndicate that Rome refuses to challenge.
      
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_JS

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Re: Italy deals with unwanted immigrants
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2008, 04:44:40 PM »
People hate them because they don't buy a house and have 1.2 children and work from 9-5 every weekday. Most interesting.

Actually, this statement is just as racist.

In reality, most Roma do buy a house and have children who go to school and work regular hours.

That statement was purposefully exaggerated to make just that point. *sigh*
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.