President George Bush Kicking A$$

[Cynthia]

The Bill is on the table. I read it. Did you?

The bill claims to make a number of improvements to the benefits paid to soldiers. Fine and dandy.

I saw nothing in there that supported a claim (the claim was made, but it was unsupported, ie, no evidence was presented to substantiate it) that the benefits veteran get now are less than those given to WWII vets.

I am asking you to provide said evidence for your claim. You made it, you post the evidence. Again, it's not my job to find your evidence for you. You are supporting a change in policy, you should show why it's needed.

Ami,

This is almost laughable. YOUR original challenge to me was to show the Bill was or was not in existence. It needs improvements apparently. I am not privy to the facts that were MORE THAN LIKELY brought up once upon a time-----thus the NEED FOR CHANGE!!!
Why don't you look up the numbers (directly from the gov. not Wiki....) and prove otherwise. Prove to me and all the Veterans that things ARE EXACTLY THE WAY THEY USED TO BE FOR ALL VETS post 9-11 in all areas of compensation.

My point is that the vets of today do not receive the same benefits as the vets of WW2.

Why don't you email Mr. Miller for your need for numbers. He will be happy to provide them for you, I am sure.

George.Miller@mail.house.gov

[Cynthia]

Making health care accessible and affordable for our Veterans
Currently, more than 50,000 veterans are waiting for more than six months for veterans? health care, and that problem will only get worse with the growing numbers of returning soldiers. Regrettably, the President?s budget provides only $106 million more than last year (excluding new fees), and provides $18 billion below the amount needed to maintain services at current levels over the next five year. Because of this cut, the number of medical personnel, mostly nurses, serving our veterans would drop by 3,000, and there would be a severe cut in long-term care for our veterans. Democrats would provide an additional $3.2 billion to meet the demand for current services and medical inflation this year, and will work to ensure that the VA is adequately funded over the next 10 years to ease the waiting periods

http://georgemiller.house.gov/gibill.html#1

[Amianthus]

YOUR original challenge to me was to show the Bill was or was not in existence.

My original challenge to you was to show that veterans do not receive the same benefits as those returning from WWII. I'm sure a bill or ten are presented in every session of congress to change veteran's benefits, I would not have doubted that at all.

My point is that the vets of today do not receive the same benefits as the vets of WW2.

And I would like to see the evidence for this claim. This was my original "challenge".

Just for the record, a claim made by a politician or political pundit without backup statistics does not constitute evidence.

[Amianthus]

Currently, more than 50,000 veterans are waiting for more than six months for veterans? health care,

What treatments are they waiting for? BT posted not that long ago about his experiences with VA. I have other friends that also deal with the VA on a regular basis. The only people I have heard that need to wait are those waiting for optional treatments or treatments for non life threatening conditions. Which has always been the case with health care - there is even a term for it, triage.

Regrettably, the President?s budget provides only $106 million more than last year (excluding new fees), and provides $18 billion below the amount needed to maintain services at current levels over the next five year.

Nice to know what Bush proposed. Of course, that doesn't tell us what was actually allocated by the House, does it? Perhaps you can supply those figures, since they are the ones that actually matter in this debate.

[Cynthia]

Ami,
Well, I can only counter by saying that BT and his clip from Wiki do not win a debate in terms of the bigger picture in this new discussion" that you have demanded here.

There is clearly a difference in what was offered the WW2 and what is offered to vet today...(if you've read the Bill that in question....21st Cent.) I would take the word of a congressman over a word from BT, 

My gosh, Tom Udall didn't make this Bill to fit the needs of a few of HIS FRIENDS, Ami. He didn't google Wiki to find out stats for such a Bill. He and those who are calling for such a change are professional politicians! I am going to trust their judgement and "numbers" before Bt's -------with all due respect, BT.

Ok so you demand #'s. I want numbers from you from a dot gov site which proves otherwise.

[Cynthia]

YOUR original challenge to me was to show the Bill was or was not in existence.

My original challenge to you was to show that veterans do not receive the same benefits as those returning from WWII. I'm sure a bill or ten are presented in every session of congress to change veteran's benefits, I would not have doubted that at all.

My point is that the vets of today do not receive the same benefits as the vets of WW2.

And I would like to see the evidence for this claim. This was my original "challenge".

Just for the record, a claim made by a politician or political pundit without backup statistics does not constitute evidence.

I'm sure a bill or ten are presented in every session of congress to change veteran's benefits, I would not have doubted that at all.


Well, then you should be SURE that the congressmen know more than you or BT put together...now don't they?

Come on, Ami.

I presented the email of Sr. Miller. IF you want to prove the numbers are wrong.....go for it.
It never was my point for your counterpoint to begin with.

I know you are a fact findin' sorta guy....but I have yet, once again, seen you find facts to prove YOUR STANCE.

[Cynthia]

Currently, more than 50,000 veterans are waiting for more than six months for veterans? health care,

What treatments are they waiting for? BT posted not that long ago about his experiences with VA. I have other friends that also deal with the VA on a regular basis. The only people I have heard that need to wait are those waiting for optional treatments or treatments for non life threatening conditions. Which has always been the case with health care - there is even a term for it, triage.

Regrettably, the President?s budget provides only $106 million more than last year (excluding new fees), and provides $18 billion below the amount needed to maintain services at current levels over the next five year.

Nice to know what Bush proposed. Of course, that doesn't tell us what was actually allocated by the House, does it? Perhaps you can supply those figures, since they are the ones that actually matter in this debate.

"Perhaps you can supply those figures, since they are the ones that actually matter in this debate."

If you feel so strongly that figures are so crucial to the DEBATE YOU HAVE suddenly called for here, then YOU show me the numbers, please.
This was never my issue....#'s that is. #'s was introduced by none other than YOU, dear Ami.

AND, I might add.....the original statement made by Sirs was subjective, as are most of our comments. You have a way of stretching the issue to prove your "point" calling on numbers. Hmmm, I will have to take notice next time Sirs makes a subjective statement. WHERE ARE THE NUMEROS??

[BT]

This is what i know.

I had a neighbor who was a viet nam vet. He was a purple heart recipient.  A straight through bullet wound to the shoulder. No disability. The last time he had been to the VA was in the early 70's.

He knew i was being treated at the VA and wanted to know what hassles he could expect if he went in to have some pains checked out. He thought he had a muscle pull.

I told him to go to desk one and make sure he was still in the system. He was. They directed him to the emergency room. He was put to the front of the line because he had a purple heart. He was triaged and admitted the same day for tests. Turns out he had lung and bone cancer, possibly from exposure to agent orange. He was being treated within hours of his arrival. Once his diagnosis was confirmed he was on 100% disability within 30 days. VFW paved the paperwork way on that. They have an office at the VA campus.

He was in the hospital for three days while they were doing the battery of tests and removing fluid from his lungs.

When he came home the first thing he did was thank me for convincing him to go. The second thing he did was remark on how professional the staff at the VA was and how genuinely concerned they were for his welfare. He was extremely impressed with how organized they were. He had his doctors card with work and home phone numbers. He had a hotline to the nursing staff. This is a guy who had little use for govt and was vocal about it. He said it's about time they got something right. Then he thanked me again.

He passed away last October and he as well as I were convinced that the VA made his journey as comfortable as possible.

One of the side issues to this debate is why the VA changed the WWII formula in the first place. Seems colleges and universities were price gouging because of the influx of GI Bill recipients. Same pattern happened in GA when the Hope Scholarships came out. Seems the real investigative work needs to be aimed at these institutions instead of denigrating the hard working staff of the VA, whilst trying to enhance ones own political career.

[sirs]

If you feel so strongly that figures are so crucial to the DEBATE YOU HAVE suddenly called for here, then YOU show me the numbers, please.
This was never my issue....#'s that is. #'s was introduced by none other than YOU, dear Ami.

and strangely it was you demanding "#'s", in the manifestation I guess, of some conclusive report(s) to back up how much better the war has gotten, how many less lives have been lost in comparison to when the war started.  OBJECTIVE Articles referencing such aren't enough, you claimed you needed concrete proof that the war in Iraq has gotten better.

Which leads to another amazing irony...when the war was not going so well, it was 24/7 headline news.  Now that things have taken such a postive turn, you can't buy an article reporting such news.  Now it takes a back seat to what's negative now, gasoline prices

[Cynthia]

If you feel so strongly that figures are so crucial to the DEBATE YOU HAVE suddenly called for here, then YOU show me the numbers, please.
This was never my issue....#'s that is. #'s was introduced by none other than YOU, dear Ami.

and strangely it was you demanding "#'s", in the manifestation I guess, of some conclusive report(s) to back up how much better the war has gotten, how many less lives have been lost in comparison to when the war started.  OBJECTIVE Articles referencing such aren't enough, you claimed you needed concrete proof that the war in Iraq has gotten better.

Which leads to another amazing irony...when the war was not going so well, it was 24/7 headline news.  Now that things have taken such a postive turn, you can't buy an article reporting such news.  Now it takes a back seat to what's negative now, gasoline prices

LOL. I never demanded any numbers, Sirs.

I was commenting on your comment about how WW2 vets had is so good.

[Plane]

I joined the Navy in 78 , I missed the "old GI bill " by one year .
What I got was still good benefits , but much less than my comrades who joined in 77 .

My educational benifit ,for example, was a savings plan that would tripple my money if spent on education  , the old bill did not require any investment.

[sirs]

LOL. I never demanded any numbers, Sirs.   I was commenting on your comment about how WW2 vets had is so good.

Sirs,  Prove to me that this war in Iraq is succeeding, in your own words, please.

by sirs
- Islamic Terrorist attacks down everywhere
- Support of Homicide bombers down
- Support of AlQeada by the Suuni populace down
- no attacks on U.S. soil since 911 (which is truely a shocker to me)
- MOST importantly (since it was never remotely possible to hunt down and kill every terrorist), the Muslim community is looking less and less supportive of militant Islam and its actions, even when aimed at the evil great satan, the U.S.  THAT's where the war will be won.  NOT by sheer military force, but by changing the hearts and minds of the Muslim comminity, as it relates to those who have hijacked their religion, mutated it, and in the name of Allah, kill anyone who's not converted or subjgated by Islam

Doesn't prove a thing. Now google facts and numbers, please.  Prove that this war is working...give us numbers, data and facts, please.  Or you could bring BT in to help.

[BT]

My son who is currently serving is fully vested for 45k in educational benefits. In the meantime the Navy has reimbursed his expenses as he works to completion of his double major undergraduate degree. 

[Cynthia]

Sirs!
I was responding to Ami's need for facts and numbers, read back. Ami is the # king. I was playing his own game.
He demands #'s even when a congressman asks for a better life for our vets.
I* was never the gal to ask for the original numeros.

I could email Mr. Miller..if that's what youall want. LOL

teehee.
BT, go for it...Your life, your friend's lives, your family''s experience are all American, indeed.

But, you will also have to ask the government officials why there is such a Bill called the 21st Century on the deck.

[Cynthia]

My son who is currently serving is fully vested for 45k in educational benefits. In the meantime the Navy has reimbursed his expenses as he works to completion of his double major undergraduate degree. 

Hey, my students are getting the best education  and have been for years....the system was really never broken if you account for personal real life experiences as you have provided in this thread.
My point?...we all have subjective experiences that cry out to make a point, BT. But, as you have also made points in the past with regard to NCLB act...and only a "few" numbers speak loudly... those are still not valid, as they are  individual "experiences", per say.. . per point to be made.

Look at the overall picture....the GI Bill is lacking according to the numbers expalined in the link I provided, according to the congressman from my state, as is probably the case in other states, no doubt.

YOur point? You have a real life experience....but it

doesn't count for anything in this argument, BT.

I appreciate your personal story, but according to this board.....one must be quick to google numbers that appear to win point.

This is not the discussion board to discuss such points in order to enlighten or win. . quite frankly.

There are too many real life stories involved to win any point.

You have proven another point with your son's story. My point being that subjective examples do not count on the 3DHS board...not really...only quick fix google facts seem to count, and even those are questioned. Everyone knows that there's more to any story. So, I take a challenge,like the one from Ami, with a grain of salt, in that members on this board can not possibly win on such points, even if they are straight from the source. i.e. the Gov.

Sirs mentioned that the vets from WW2 suffered more or less in comparison to the Iraqi vets.

I responded with the fact that the vets of WW2 had the GI Bill, at least in their corner. . compared to today's vets.

I was challenged and asked for numbers and numbers and numbers again.

Ok....I never asked for such numbers when I replied to Sirs in the original post.

After Ami's request for such proof, I presented a congressman's request for support of  a Bill that is already on the docket; the 21st Century Bill.
End of my point.

If Ami and others want to learn more, they can google the bill statement to find out more.

I find this to be a silly request as the original post to Sirs had nothing to do with numbers.

Heck, I can email Mr. Miller and find out more, but it's not worth it as I don't see anyone else here seeking such facts to the contrary through a government source, that is....(not Wiki)