Author Topic: We're fucked  (Read 27148 times)

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Plane

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2008, 02:35:09 PM »
But 50%!

Government isn't worth that much to anyone.

If the Kingdom of God can be run on 10% why does a government of Human beings require so much more?

=================================================

That was a hypothetical example, plane.  It works with 20% and it works with 35%.  The point is, at some ridiculously low level (1/2 %) the tax won't hurt anyone and at some ridiculously high level (90%) it'll hurt all but the ultra-rich, but somewhere in between are rates that will hit the guy at the lower end of the income spectrum and impact his life while having a much lesser impact on the life of a guy $40K higher on the income scale.


It has the same negative effect on the economy in general no matter what strata does without it first.

The money left in the hands of the public serves the public , it should not be removed from there unless the government actually needs it for some thing that the people actually need the government to have.

Plane

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2008, 02:38:24 PM »
>>And you still don't get it, Tee.  It was the Widow's CHOICE to sacrafice more.<<

Which is why Jesus told the story. She gave MORE that she could afford because she WANTED to. So if the lefties want to give more than is asked from them by the government they certainly are free to do so. The problem is, not only to they force OTHER people to give at the point of a sword, but they also refuse to give like the woman in the story themselves. Clinton, Kerry, Biden, Obama, don't give to charity, they TAKE it from others who are already giving to their church or charities.

But really, why are we even discussing Jesus and Christianity with a Godless Communist?

Because it is fun.

There really isn't much other reason.

I think in some minor way we exchange information and learn , in a small part we improve our ability to communicate , use logic and type , but ....

Trying to get anywhere like an epiphany in a contest of argument with the committed is certainly going to be a rare event.

So primarily it is for fun.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:58:03 PM by Plane »

sirs

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2008, 02:40:26 PM »
>>And you still don't get it, Tee.  It was the Widow's CHOICE to sacrafice more.<<

Which is why Jesus told the story. She gave MORE that she could afford because she WANTED to. So if the lefties want to give more than is asked from them by the government they certainly are free to do so. The problem is, not only to they force OTHER people to give at the point of a sword, but they also refuse to give like the woman in the story themselves. Clinton, Kerry, Biden, Obama, don't give to charity, they TAKE it from others who are already giving to their church or charities.

And Tee's already on record at not refuting that Conservatives give far more than liberals (in general), and that libs tend to "give" when it becames mandatory via act of congress & taxation, and only when others are "giving" via mandate as well

His crux is that the "giving" isn't sincere enough, unless they're hurting financially after the fact (enter his perversion of the Widow's mite parable)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:42:06 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

crocat

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2008, 07:10:22 PM »
Americans Gave $97 Billion to Religion in 2006


COLUMN By NANCY BUXTON
HumanistNetworkNews.org
Aug. 1, 2007

"Americans continued to give more money to religion in 2006 than to any other organization or cause.

According to Giving USA Foundation Americans donated $295 billion in charitable contributions in 2006. About $97 billion went to religious organizations -- that is just a shade under one third of all charitable gifts. Last year, Americans gave $93 billion to religion.

Education was a distant second, receiving $41 billion (13.9 percent). Human Services received $29.6 billion (roughly 10 percent). Public-society benefit received $21.41 billion (7.3 percent) and health received $20.22 billion (6.9 percent). Arts, culture and humanities received $12.5 billion (4.2 percent) of the total, while the environment and animals received a total of $6.6 billion (2.2 percent).

Individuals are by far the biggest donors, giving 75.6 percent of the total, with bequest, foundations and corporations giving the remainder.

What about donations to Humanist Organizations?

This morning I called Sharon Bond, spokesperson for the Giving USA Foundation, and she confirmed that individual dononations to religion are still on the rise, but the overall percentage of gifts to religious organizations is actually shrinking as Americans give more to other causes.

Humanists are a small but growing segment of the population and we want our donations to grow accordingly. I think they will."

I think that is quite amazing that 75.6 percent was given by individuals.....prolly a lot of those use a 'short form' for their taxes and thus don't even take advantage of the tax deduction.   The other 24.6 by the "haves" that would certainly be motivated by the tax break.



Michael Tee

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2008, 10:05:02 PM »
I think Americans giving to religion is no mystery and no evidence of good character.  If anything it is a testament to the effectiveness of TV advertising on a semi-moronic public.

Churches today don't simply pass around a collection plate to the congregation to pick up their small bills and loose change.  Multi-million dollar campaigns clog the airways with emotional appeals by preachers with choirs and bands to back up their shows and often the solicitation of "love offerings" is accompanied by the disguised sale of trinkets in the form of the tackiest imaginable knick-knacks (sculpture of two white hands joined in prayer that light up in the dark, "Whole-Bible" DVDs in twelve volumes, etc.)  This isn't a case of spontaneous giving, it is TV-pitched appeals to the loneliest and most vulnerable of America's citizens, the elderly, the bed-ridden.  Sending money to TV preachers has about as much to do with donating to real religion as flipping a coin into the Trevi Fountain.


crocat

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2008, 11:35:23 PM »
Watches the point go sailing over Michael's head.

Once again, you stand in judgement giving the masses the pass of being responsible for their own actions.  IF I chose to hand over my money to the Church, it would not be because they bombarded me with their holier than thou barrage of do gooder religious rhetoric  but that I thought my money could be put to a good cause.

Personally I think that I am responsible for all of my actions, just like I think that you are responsible for yours.    We all come into this world able to think our way through and long before we are sucked into the outside influences we have parents.  Now before you run on with the falling through the cracks prattle let's just say that IF you are going to blame big daddy US government for not coddling those that cannot make it on their maybe you should blame the first government that failed them... their family. 

BUT I digress, the point that I was really making is all programs whether they are Religious, big corporate moguls, or government start out gathering large funds that they allocate and adjudicate promising to help the needy and cure all social ills all the while driving the funds from the top down through a sift that is so tight very little makes it down  to your so called needy. 

I prefer to work hard and earn as much money as I can.  I would love to be the greedy bastard that earned $250,000.00 a year.  I promise you very little would go to the Church or some stupid social program that encourages the receiver to wait around for their hand out, their social fix, or anything else that let’s them rationalize that their fate rests in my hands.  All that said, I am a very generous and charitable person.  I make contributions to causes that I can see the benefit of... my neighbors that hit a tough spot,  a family in my neighborhood that can use a hand up.  I shop in my neighborhood and I support  small business were ever I can.  These are good causes, Michael.  If I support my community it will thrive and the neighborhoods will benefit, the tax base will benefit, the Churches will benefit.  These are all good things that I can truly feel a part of.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2008, 11:53:11 PM »
I don't see any problem with many of the churches. I have my bank account in a church credit union, which says they contribute to missions, where poor children are educated and the sick are cured. They are at least as good as any commercial bank, and are no into buying out other banks and such.

The mega churches tend to be monuments to the megapreachers that founded them.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 01:31:30 AM »
Watches the point go sailing over Michael's head.  Once again, you stand in judgement giving the masses the pass of being responsible for their own actions.  IF I chose to hand over my money to the Church, it would not be because they bombarded me with their holier than thou barrage of do gooder religious rhetoric  but that I thought my money could be put to a good cause. Personally I think that I am responsible for all of my actions, just like I think that you are responsible for yours.
 

Which unfortunately Cro, is a concept few on the hard left can grasp     :-\     Enter --> those who "know better than you"  Know where YOUR $$$ would be better spent

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 02:33:37 AM »
<<Once again, you stand in judgement giving the masses the pass of being responsible for their own actions.>>

That was an easy call.  They're morons and the televangelists take advantage of them, and the government makes it easy for the evangelists because they get tax breaks as "religious" institutions.  LMFAO.  Religious?  They're a business and everyone but their victims knows it.

<< IF I chose to hand over my money to the Church, it would not be because they bombarded me with their holier than thou barrage of do gooder religious rhetoric  but that I thought my money could be put to a good cause.>>

Well, that's YOU.  When was the last time you sent Brother Swaggart or Rev. Hagee a love-offering?  Those stats don't reflect the giving habits of rational, sane Americans - - they represent the moronic actions of the dumbest and most vulnerable of the American people as they are fleeced mercilessly by phony religious con artists bilking them over public airwaves with government tax assists for being so "religious."

<<Personally I think that I am responsible for all of my actions, just like I think that you are responsible for yours.    We all come into this world able to think our way through and long before we are sucked into the outside influences we have parents.  Now before you run on with the falling through the cracks prattle let's just say that IF you are going to blame big daddy US government for not coddling those that cannot make it on their maybe you should blame the first government that failed them... their family. >>

Bullshit.  I blame the government for failing their family AND for failing them.

<<BUT I digress, the point that I was really making is all programs whether they are Religious, big corporate moguls, or government start out gathering large funds that they allocate and adjudicate promising to help the needy and cure all social ills all the while driving the funds from the top down through a sift that is so tight very little makes it down  to your so called needy. >>

Well, despite all the failings of the current government, "elected" as it is in a capitalist system under capitalist rules, it isn't clear to me that government revenues AREN'T distributed more generously than corporate revenues to the guys at the bottom of the pit.  Corporate revenues are directed publically, lavishly and ostentatiously to the greater good of the corporate owners, as we know with private jets, private Caribbean and Greek islands, yachts, palaces, hookers and expense accounts.  Ain't much left over for anyone.  OTOH, if the politicians who oversee the collection of taxes for, say, education or health-care grants were to spend it on themselves as the corporate world does, there'd be a fucking revolution.  It's nonsense to claim, as you do, that both government and business are equally bad in not allowing the money they take in to filter down.  There is a huge difference between them, even when we are dealing with a government that depends on the corrupt corporate world for its lifeblood campaign financing.

<<I prefer to work hard and earn as much money as I can.  I would love to be the greedy bastard that earned $250,000.00 a year. >>

Yeah, you and me both.  So long as it didn't cost me time with my wife and family, or leisure time reading and listening to music and studying.

<< I promise you very little would go to the Church . . . >>

I hear ya, sister!

<< . . . or some stupid social program that encourages the receiver to wait around for their hand out, their social fix, or anything else that let’s them rationalize that their fate rests in my hands. >>

Hold on that's where I draw the line.  If the government has a program to relieve poverty and suffering I am all for it and I'll pay more taxes gladly.  I don't ask that it be guaranteed to work, either.  Everything I do doesn't end successfully, so I don't ask that my government be infallible either.  All I ask is that they do their best to evaluate the program before they execute, and determine to the best of their abilities that it has a reasonable chance of success.

<< All that said, I am a very generous and charitable person.  I make contributions to causes that I can see the benefit of... my neighbors that hit a tough spot,  a family in my neighborhood that can use a hand up. >>

I do what I can, but my own problems come first.  That is the bottom line.  Charity begins at home.

<< I shop in my neighborhood and I support  small business were ever I can.  >>

In theory, yeah.  But if a big-ticket item is significantly cheaper at a big-box store, goodbye Mr. Neighbourhood Business.  There's a balance of convenience and price and both are legitimate concerns.  The only local businesses that I support unequivocally are restaurants and bookstores.  I hate to see big-box bookstores drive out the little guy and I do what I can to stop it.  And, given the choice, my wife and I always buy Ontario produce at the grocer's.

<<These are good causes, Michael.  If I support my community it will thrive and the neighborhoods will benefit, the tax base will benefit, the Churches will benefit.  These are all good things that I can truly feel a part of.>>

Can't argue with ya, cro.  In theory, this is all to the good.  Even the churches, provided that they are not agents of reaction.

Plane

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 08:09:13 AM »
"...It's nonsense to claim, as you do, that both government and business are equally bad in not allowing the money they take in to filter down.  ..."

Oh?

Why should one think so , where is the evidence either way?

A National government changeing revolution is hard to stage ,  company leadership revolutions happen almost constantly .

Is it easyer to cover up wrongdoing and misappropriation with the power of a government office or a corporate one?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2008, 09:10:16 AM »
A National government changeing revolution is hard to stage ,  company leadership revolutions happen almost constantly .

Is it easyer to cover up wrongdoing and misappropriation with the power of a government office or a corporate one?

===========================================
MUCH easier to cover up such stuff in a corporation. Just witness what went on at Enron, Lehman Brothers, WAMU. One day they are great companies, the next day, they are deceased for all practical purposes.
The government has better systems for tracing where the money is going, and it tends to be more public. They can't arrest reporters doing an investigation on govt. fraud. If they catch thm going through thr records at some corporation, they get arrested, sued, fined and fired.




"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2008, 11:23:12 AM »


<<Why should one think so , where is the evidence either way?>>

The evidence is in the lifestyles of the rich and famous.  Know any politicians who live at that level on public money?  You know damn well you don't!

<<A National government changeing revolution is hard to stage ,  company leadership revolutions happen almost constantly .>>

BFD.  Name one corporate "revolution" where the company got back one cent of what the former officers and directors pocketed.

<<Is it easyer to cover up wrongdoing and misappropriation with the power of a government office or a corporate one?>>

No contest.  Corporate every time.  Hopefully you read XO's post on that.

richpo64

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2008, 11:40:53 AM »
>>That was an easy call.  They're morons and the televangelists take advantage of them, and the government makes it easy for the evangelists because they get tax breaks as "religious" institutions.<<

What you're seeing here is just how limited Mikey's, and the lefts, thinking is. It's probably why liberals are liberals in the first place. Mikey's thinking is limited to the stereotype he's been taught by the left, the television evangelist. He can't conceive anything else. So he dutifully repeats what he's learned, never even realizing what a small percentage of religious people these television evangelists actually represent.

It's the template at work. Again.

Michael Tee

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2008, 01:23:34 PM »
<<So he dutifully repeats what he's learned, never even realizing what a small percentage of religious people these television evangelists actually represent.>>

Doesn't matter what percentage of religious people the TV evangelists represent, they probably rake in the lion's share of all that money that the "good-hearted" American people supposedly donate to "religion."

IMHO, if you subtracted all the dough that went to the televangelists, American giving to "religion" wouldn't be nearly as impressive as you guys seem to think it is.

richpo64

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2008, 02:11:42 PM »
>>Doesn't matter what percentage of religious people the TV evangelists represent, they probably rake in the lion's share of all that money that the "good-hearted" American people supposedly donate to "religion."<<

Once again, your ignorance is showing. If you'd like, you can show me some evidence of this claim, otherwise please refrain from showing your ass.

It's the template, again.