Author Topic: McCain and the Conservatives  (Read 6686 times)

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The_Professor

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McCain and the Conservatives
« on: March 11, 2008, 10:27:17 AM »
Comments are hereby solicited...
"John McCain is the Republican nominee. Nothing we can do will change that.

McCain likes to pose as a maverick, but he is a third generation Country Club Republican who grew up in Washington political society. He is solidly aligned with the Country Club Liberal wing of the party, which has never been much good for conservatives; and his personal history shows he will do much to remain in office, and one supposes that means he will do much to get it. He was a spoiled brat in his youth, but he did go to Annapolis, and he did not shirk combat duty. The Legions see him as one of themselves. If this sounds a bit like Mark Anthony, so be it; but he hasn't Anthony's brains or ruthlessness, which is just as well.

McCain cannot win without the support of the Conservatives. Indeed he cannot win without the enthusiastic support of the conservatives. He will also need the votes of the Republican party, the independent conservatives who will generally vote Republican, and some Democrats. In a word he?s going to need much of the old Reagan coalition; but like all the Country Club Republicans, he hasn?t any real troops. The liberal wing of the Republican Party is good at raising money and using hired campaign workers, but it hasn?t any real party building strength. It doesn?t inspire enthusiasm or zeal.

McCain will gather a number of centrist and conservative Democrats, and he will do that without any need for movement Conservatives to be involved; but without us he won?t be able to stir the base and get out the vote. Many will sit on their hands unless motivated by the conservatives.

He needs us. Now: what do we want?

We are not going to get a movement Conservative. McCain is no Goldwater and never will be. He is a Washington politician with deep ties to the liberal establishment and the country club Republicans. He is not merely soft but squishy on immigration, he is committed to an insane campaign reform effort, and he is not unfriendly to the self-contradictory notion of "Big Government Conservatism" and "Compassionate Conservatism" on a Federal level.

Note that I am not denouncing the idea of compassion. For a man to love his country, his country ought to be lovely, and no country is lovely when there are people in misery in its streets. Moreover, there are things government can do to make the country more lovely. However, these are seldom things that the National Government can do, and in fact it's not often the state governments can do much. These are matters for local government, and even more so for what Tocqueville called "the associations": non-government organizations in Tocqueville's America and long afterward up into my lifetime doing much of the relief work, civic improvement, hospitals and food services, clinics, shelters, missions: the YMCA and YWCA when they were real. The Boy Scouts, Lions, Eagles, Moose, Masons, Knights of Columbus, Rotary, Optimists -- you get the idea. To the extent that the Federal government acts with these it is to suppress them, and to replace them, and this is a disastrous trend for freedom. Having said that, I doubt that McCain will understand, agree, or even care. His view of Big Government Conservatism is not likely to be much different from that of Bush II.

However: he has made a bid for Conservative support. Part of that bid is a promise to appoint strict constructionist judges to the Supreme Court. If he will do that, much can be done to dismantle the bureaucratic suppression of the associations.

One great threat to local institutions is illegal aliens. Hospitals, privately funded by charities, are required to take all comers to emergency rooms: and soon they must close because they can't afford to be free clinics. Illegal immigrants swamp city services. San Diego is bankrupt because of illegals. Los Angeles is forced to raise taxes. Allies of the illegals take key positions in the California legislature and hold the people hostage. "We want more money," they say; and they will never give up.

McCain has horrible positions on border control and will never use ICE to deport illegals here. He wants and amnesty which would be a disaster. However: he has promised to secure the border first. I have no reason to believe that this former Legion officer is not a man of his word. He has pledged his word. We need him to confirm that offer: and if he does, we can consider the matter closed. He will not secure that border in 4 years; he cannot go for his amnesty until he has done that; and this is an end to the matter. This is the best the movement conservatives will get, and it is better than we have now with Bush II; what more do we want? A Democrat who will demand amnesty without securing the borders?

We will have to live with "campaign reform". We will have to live with fiscal irresponsibility and lack of enthusiasm for tax cuts. We will have to live with the notion of federal intervention by ham handed bureaucrats in our local affairs. Even there, though, McCain has said he is changing his position on spending and taxes.

What we need is a good negotiator to get a pact with McCain: what he will promise the conservative movement in exchange for our enthusiastic -- and I mean enthusiastic even if we must fake some of the enthusiasm -- support.

In particular we want a reiteration of promises already made: strict constructionist judges both on Supreme and lower courts; secure borders before any comprehensive immigration reform; and a bit more enthusiasm for tax cuts.

We can get all that, and it is far better than we will get from any Democrat. We should take it, and get to work.

PS: If we can get Fred Thompson for VP, it will certainly make it easier to generate some zeal."

--Jerry Pournelle
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 10:49:04 AM »
PS: If we can get Fred Thompson for VP, it will certainly make it easier to generate some zeal."

===================================================
ZEAL, surely you jest.

More like ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

as in laZZZZZZZZZZy

Politically, the guy's a sloth. He should go back to acting, where he belongs.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 10:52:20 AM »

PS: If we can get Fred Thompson for VP, it will certainly make it easier to generate some zeal."

Are you freakin kidding me?
Fred Thompson?
Yeah all we need is another guy that looks like he has one foot in the grave
Is a horrible, boring speaker, and didn't win a primary.
Our only chance to defeat the "Trojan Horse" in Nov is to gamble.
We probably are going to lose anyway
So why not go for the home run?
I am not sure who would be the best
There are people that are experts on this stuff like Dick Morris
But I say do something crazy, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Joe Lieberman, Tommy Franks, Roger Staubach,
Baloney the conservatives wont turn out if we gamble
They will
we have to "not play by the rules" to have a chance
I say bet the ranch and gamble
what do we have to lose?

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 12:06:12 PM »
Quote

John McCain is the Republican nominee. Nothing we can do will change that.


Exactly why I will not be voting Republican again this election. The support for McCain in Republican circles is a puzzle to me. He is among the more untrustworthy politicians, and seems rather nonconservative on just about everything but warmo- uh, I mean national defense.

As Matt Welch (who investigated McCain enough to write a whole book about the man) has pointed out, "when McCain says a variation on 'I have never' -- especially when it's volunteered, as opposed to being hissed as a defensive response to an inquiry -- take special note of what comes after, because it's usually a decent insight into what he actually is." (Emphasis in original.) Welch noted this in response to McCain's "I have never believed I was destined be President" speech. Which, frankly, even taken at face value I find to be rather creepy. The idea of choosing between McCain and Clinton is like the idea of choosing between a snake and a serpent. Obama is shaping up to be not a whole lot better. If you want someone to attempt to lead the country rather than attempt to rule it, you're out of luck this election season.

No, really, I meant national defense. Really.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 12:37:39 PM »
support for McCain in Republican circles is a puzzle to me

It's simple.

Trying to prevent "the most liberal member of the US Senate in 2007" (Barack Hussein Obama)
from nominating anti-business, anti-capitalism nominees to lifetime appointments on the US Supreme Court.

If there isn't a chance in hell the Prom Queen will be your date for Prom it's a pretty easy
choice to go with the girl thats a "6" over the girl thats a "2".
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Rich

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 12:58:39 PM »
>>Exactly why I will not be voting Republican again this election.<<

So you'll be helping your ideological polar opposite win.

The country thanks you.

This is were you and I respectfully part company. I respect your principled stance on the issues, I always have, but throwing the baby out with the bath water just irks me. So go ahead, stand on your principle. I hope they can keep your head above water.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 01:10:28 PM »
I say bet the ranch and gamble
what do we have to lose?

================================
Dick Cheney for FOUR MORE YEARS!
Yeah! That's the ticket!

Totally unexpected, and as big a gamble as could be made.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 01:33:25 PM »
Boy, Xo, sure does have an apparent obsession with Cheney.  It's almost painful to watch......."almost", which would make Xo's standard comback to simply not read his comments, null & void
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 02:37:31 PM »

It's simple.

Trying to prevent "the most liberal member of the US Senate in 2007" (Barack Hussein Obama)
from nominating anti-business, anti-capitalism nominees to lifetime appointments on the US Supreme Court.


Near as  can I can tell, I have no reason to believe McCain won't be doing the same thing. McCain is the man, after all, who pushed for campaign finance "reform" that tramples all over First Amendment rights, and apparently feels righteous about doing so. He does not come across as a man who trusts the market or the citizens.


If there isn't a chance in hell the Prom Queen will be your date for Prom it's a pretty easy
choice to go with the girl thats a "6" over the girl thats a "2".


Heh. From where I sit, it's more like choosing between a 2, a 2 and a 2 1/4. I'd rather stay home.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2008, 02:52:19 PM »
>>Exactly why I will not be voting Republican again this election.<<

So you'll be helping your ideological polar opposite win.


Which one? There seem to be three such candidates at the moment.


This is were you and I respectfully part company. I respect your principled stance on the issues, I always have, but throwing the baby out with the bath water just irks me.


What baby? McCain is so untrustworthy that I can't believe any campaign promise he might make regarding any policy except perhaps about the "wars" in the Middle East. He definately seems gung-ho about that. Can I trust him to protect individual rights? No. To reduce taxes and economic regulations? No. So what baby? The baby was thrown out some time ago as best I can tell. Keeping the dirty bathwater in the name of beating someone with a (D) behind their name seems pointless if we haven't a baby to go with it.


So go ahead, stand on your principle. I hope they can keep your head above water.


Well above. Thanks for your concern.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2008, 03:38:00 PM »
the most liberal member of the US Senate in 2007" (Barack Hussein Obama

==========================================
How did John Kerry lose this title?
He was the most liberal four years ago.
Is it perhaps bestowed by Rush?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Rich

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2008, 03:41:48 PM »
>>Well above. Thanks for your concern.<<

Sorry if you took it negatively, but then you always do.

I guess being a libertarian means always being able to say, "Aren't I wonderful?" while the rest of us have to actually live in reality and try and work for compromise within a real political party. When it's all over you can continue to be what you'll always been; irrelevant.

sirs

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 03:45:46 PM »
Prince does have a point, Rich.  Of the 3 candidates you have 2 socialists, and 1 liberal lite.  We all know how Bush wasn't this Reagan-like conservative the left kept trying to portray him as, and McCain was to the left of him, so let's not fool ourselves into thinking he's any kind of Conservative.

That said, Rich is right that simply "sitting it out" largely makes whatever criticism one wishes to lodge moot, since that person made no effort to at least shape the country via their vote.  I had absolutely NO intentions of voting for McCain, and had made that very clear early on.  Now that I see the alternatives, and that there are no other viable candidates, I guess this partisan conservative is going to vote liberal-lite, this election cycle.  The alternative repercussions to National Defense, the Constitution, and to the Judiciary are far too scary for me not to.
  
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 07:42:58 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2008, 03:45:59 PM »
How did John Kerry lose this title?
He was the most liberal four years ago.
Is it perhaps bestowed by Rush?

Well, Obama was just entering the Senate four years ago. Things change.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: McCain and the Conservatives
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2008, 03:47:24 PM »
If Sirs stays home and a Democrat wins, then Richie's cunning ploy of  voting for Hillary will have been in vain. :'(
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 04:06:31 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."