DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on March 10, 2010, 06:26:44 PM
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Iraqi PM Maliki sweeps polls, defeats pro-Iranian bloc
DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis
March 9, 2010, 2:11 PM (GMT+02:00)
(http://www.debka.com/dynmedia/photos/2010/03/09/big/Nuri_Maliki.jpg)
Nouri Maliki wins another term as Iraqi PM
Preliminary election results of Iraq's general election are reported by debkafile's Middle East sources as an impressive victory for the incumbent prime minister Nouri Maliki's State of Law Coalition, which was backed by Washington.
He has carried nine out of 19 provinces and the capital Baghdad, and looks like commanding around 100 of the 325 seats in parliament. The Tehran-backed Iraqi National Alliance - INA - led by ex-prime minster Ibrahim Jafari, trailed Maliki with 45-50 seats. Because this alliance was a conglomeration of Iraq's pro-Iranian factions - Moqtada Sadr's radicals, the Dawa group, Amer al-Hakim's supporters and Ahmad Chalabi - Iran faces the loss of significant support in the new Iraqi parliament.
Maliki's foremost contender, ex-prime minister Iyad Allawi and his al-Iraqiya secular alliance of liberal Shiites and Sunni Muslims won 70 mandates. The Saudi royal house and Syrian president Bashar Assad had backed him to the hilt in the hope of unseating Maliki altogether. At the same time, the Allawi grouping is now in line as leading partner in a Shiite-Sunni coalition under Maliki's premiership. A third partner would be the Kurdish bloc lead by president Jalal Talabani and Kurdistan leader Masoud Barzani, which came third with 50 parliamentary seats.
debkafile's Middle East sources report that Washington has good reason to celebrate the Iraqi election's outcome even before the final results are published later this month. A government of these three blocs would not only be pro-American but stable enough to ward off attempts to stir up civil strife.
Our military sources report, with the fear of post-election unrest receding, there is now no reason to slow down the US military departure from Iraq which can proceed up to August according to the timeline laid out by president Barack Obama.
Our sources add: Although voter turnout was 62 percent, down from the previous election, Al Qaeda failed to disrupt the vote despite attacks which killed least 38 and injured dozens on polling day. Although some 500 Sunni candidates were barred from running for alleged ties to Saddam Hussein's Baath party, voting in the Sunni-dominated Anbar province was around 61 percent. The highest voter participation - 80 percent - was registered in Kurdistan.
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Lemme jump Tee's gun and claim how this is proof positive of the U.S. functioning as the puppet master to Iraq's government. Dictating how high they'll jump, when we say "jump" ;)
BTW, how are those oil wells coming along? You know, the ones we went into Iraq in the 1st place for. Obviously we're trucking and shipping every drop directly to America, right?
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If the Iraqi people vote for the same candidate the US supports they are puppets.
But if the Iraqi people vote in the candidate Iran supports...well ....hell thats A-OK!
::)
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You're catching on, Cu4 ;)
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<<If the Iraqi people vote for the same candidate the US supports they are puppets.
<<But if the Iraqi people vote in the candidate Iran supports...well ....hell thats A-OK!>>
LOL. Let's get real, just for once.
When the Iraqi people vote in an "election" held under the guns of a foreign occupying force of about 200,000 men, the whole thing is a farce and the results are totally meaningless. End of story.
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There are 96k troops in Iraq at the moment and the only ones shooting during the election was Al Queda.
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When the Iraqi people vote in an "election" held under the guns of a foreign occupying force of about 200,000 men, the whole thing is a farce and the results are totally meaningless. End of story.
So, the vote for Anschluss in Austria was a farce and the results totally meaningless as well?
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<<There are 96k troops in Iraq at the moment and the only ones shooting during the election was Al Queda. >>
More or less what I originally said - - 200,000 (about 100,000 military and an approximately equal no. of "contractors.")
They're not shooting any more than the Nazis had to be shooting in Occupied Europe, but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either. They render the "election" results meaningless and farcical.
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<<So, the vote for Anschluss in Austria was a farce and the results totally meaningless as well?>>
In Austria, there was a lot of support for pan-Germanism and Anschluss before the invasion, there was a vote on the Anschluss in which the anti-Nazis were probably suppressed to some extent, so of course the results are somewhat tainted, but the fact remains that most Austrians served the Nazi regime enthusiastically and from Hitler himself down to the most obscure Nazi war criminals made huge contributions to the Holocaust and the Nazi threat to the world. They sure as hell weren't the innocent, brave, courageous, music-loving, anti-Nazi resistance fighters that bullshit artists like you and The Sound of Music try to make them out to be.
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In Austria, there was a lot of support for pan-Germanism and Anschluss before the invasion, there was a vote on the Anschluss in which the anti-Nazis were probably suppressed to some extent, so of course the results are somewhat tainted, but the fact remains that most Austrians served the Nazi regime enthusiastically and from Hitler himself down to the most obscure Nazi war criminals made huge contributions to the Holocaust and the Nazi threat to the world.
Yeah, I guess having armed German Wehrmacht stationed in the polling places, actually checking the ballots to make sure the Austrians "voted properly", was just "somewhat tainted".
Got any evidence that the US did more than the Wehrmacht during the Anschluss vote to "taint" it? I had not heard that there were armed US forces checking each and every ballot in Iraq as the vote proceeded to make sure that everyone "voted properly"...
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Don't hold your breath. If anything, expect "evidence" analogus to that of Bush stealing the 2000 election. In other words, don't expect any
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but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either.
Girls Return to School in Mazar-e-Sharif
USAID renovates school for 5,000 girls who had been banned for more than six years
Mazar-e-Sharif | Sunday, June 01, 2003
On November 20, 2002, five thousand girls walked in the doors of the Sultana Razia Girls' School
after being banned for more than six years. Located in Mazar-e-Sharif, this school is one of the
largest girls' schools in northern Afghanistan. USAID helped with the renovation which cost
more than $200,000 and included the restoration of thirty-two fully functional classrooms.
This project is one of many which are part of a joint initiative between the governments of
Afghanistan and the United States to build or rehabilitate 1,000 schools over the next three years.
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//imageupload/story%20(26).jpg)
Before
Sultana Razia Girls? School was closed during the Taliban regime and used as
a refuge for Taliban forces. As a result, the school was destroyed and then
abandoned when the Taliban fell from power.
Photo: IOM-ATI staff
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//imageupload/story%20(25).jpg)
After
Five thousand girls now attend the Sultana Razia Girls' School renovated by USAID.
During the opening ceremony, a 21-year-old student said "I want to become a lawyer
because I want to bring justice and freedom to Afghanistan ... especially for women.
"One of her teachers added, "To teach makes me feel like I am helping Afghanistan.
I couldn't fight before, but now I can help make Afghanistan better.?
http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.2.aspx (http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.2.aspx)
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but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either.
Laptops Create Classrooms of the Future
Public-private partnership provides Afghan students with One Laptop per Child computers.
Kabul, Afghanistan | Thursday, December 24, 2009
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/images/Photo.250.502.aspx)
Photo: USAID/ASMED
Afghan students now have the opportunity to learn using computers and the Internet thanks to USAID, the One Laptop per Child Foundation, the Afghan Government, and private sector partners.
Each morning, Hamida, an eleven-year-old student in Kabul, packs her schoolbag. Alongside her pens and books, she carries a bright green-and-white laptop. "It's like a friend and teacher to me," she says. "I can look and try to solve questions and spend my time learning."
After years of war, instability, and times when such technology was banned, USAID is bringing laptops designed to improve education into Afghan schools. Computers like Hamida's provide students with vast educational resources including digital libraries, educational pages, word processing, databases, and access to email and the Internet.
This classroom of the future is being piloted in Afghanistan today thanks to an innovative public-private partnership between USAID, the U.S.-based One Laptop per Child Foundation (OLPC), the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Communication and Information Technology, Roshan Social Programs, and Afghan IT company Paiwastoon Networking Services.
The laptops, designed by OLPC, use just a quarter of the energy of a regular laptop and can be either solar or foot powered. With 7.5 high-resolution screens that can be read in the dark and in direct sunlight, and watertight protective outer cases with Dari or Pashto keyboards, they are well suited to overcome the unique challenges of Afghanistan.
The laptops are not only for use in the classroom. Equipped with Internet connectivity, educational software, and a small business tutorial and market information toolkit provided by USAID, the computers are a valuable tool for the entire family. Each evening, the laptops go home with the students, whose families can accessing training and resources to develop and improve their businesses. Even in the most remote regions of Afghanistan, students and entrepreneurs are connecting to the world.
USAID combined these local private and public sector resources as part of an innovative public-private partnership. This successful venture improves Afghanistan's educational system and rebuilds the country's
human capacity, creating opportunities for much-needed income generating activities.
http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.954.aspx (http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.954.aspx)
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but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either.
Serving Millions with Critical Medicine Delivery
USAID supplies clinics with essential pharmaceuticals for 4.5 million in Afghanistan
Bamyan Province
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/Images/Photo.46.aspx)
A young woman receives treatment at a USAID-funded Basic Health Center in Bamyan Province, Afghanistan.
In Afghanistan, approximately 42% of deaths during childhood result from treatable and often preventable illnesses including respiratory infections and diarrhea. Working with the Afghan Ministry of Health to prevent these unnecessary deaths, USAID provided nearly fifty-four metric tons of pharmaceuticals (119,016 lbs.) for use by nineteen nongovernmental organizations (NGO) in fourteen rural Afghan provinces.
The pharmaceutical supplies were distributed to 250 clinics reaching 4.5 million people. The nineteen NGOs are already recipients of USAID?s Rural Expansion of Afghanistan Community-based Healthcare (REACH) performance-based grants - totaling $52 million - used to deliver health services in rural and underserved areas of Afghanistan.
The NGOs operate USAID-funded clinics that directly provide services to more than 1.1 million women of childbearing age, and over three quarters of a million children under age five. The REACH Program specifically addresses the health of women and children by expanding access to quality basic health services in rural areas, including support for the construction and rehabilitation of clinics.
http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.79.aspx (http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.79.aspx)
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but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either.
New Health Services Partnership Puts Afghans First
The PCH program is expected to be implemented for five years, with a total value of $236 million.
Kabul, Afghanistan | Monday, November 30, 2009
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/images/Photo.250.469.aspx)
Photo: USAID/Afghanistan
Minister of Public Health Dr. Fatimie and U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry s
hake hands at the launch of the Partnership Contracts for Health Service program.
The Ministry of Public Health and the Ministry of Finance launched a new Partnership
Contracts for Health Service (PCH) program on November 4 after signing 16 contracts
with 10 NGOs totaling approximately $72 million over two years. Through these
contracts funded by USAID, the Ministry of Public Health will support
462 health facilities and more than 4,000 health posts in twelve provinces.
The PCH program is expected to be implemented for five years, with a total value
of $236 million, not including essential medicines that will also be provided by the
U.S. Government.
At the signing, Minister of Public Health Dr. Said Mohammad Amin Fatimie,
Minister of Finance Dr. Omar Zakhilwal, and U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry
spoke of the importance of health services packages to improve the health
of the Afghan people and how the program will improve access to quality
health care, especially for women and children.
?Today is an important step in improving the lives and the health of the Afghan people,?
said Ambassador Eikenberry. ?Through these host country contracts with the various NGOs,
this program will make available basic health services and hospital services to more than
35 percent of the Afghan population. We have already seen a significant rise in
accessibility in health services for the population rise from just nine percent in 2001 to
approximately 85 percent today.? Minister of Finance Dr. Omar Zakhilwal added,
?The Government of Islamic Republic of Afghanistan by taking this opportunity would like
to make sure that it would do the best to ensure that the funding is executed in the most
effective, transparent and accountable manner.?
http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.909.aspx (http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.909.aspx)
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but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either.
USAID Program Graduates 23 Midwives in Jawzjan Province
Skilled midwives will provide care to approximately 345,000 mothers and children.
Shibirghan, Jawzjan Province, Afghanistan | Saturday, October 31, 2009
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/images/Photo.250.451.aspx)
Photo: USAID/Uruj Perwaiz
These graduating midwives will reach 345,000 mothers and children throughout Jawzjan.
On October 18, Jawzjan province celebrated the graduation of 23 new midwives from a USAID-supported midwifery education program. The skilled midwives will be deployed back to their communities and will work from health facilities, some of them in very remote areas. They will provide care to approximately 345,000 mothers and children throughout Jawzjan, improving infant and maternal health while reducing mortality rates.
The recruitment and training of midwives throughout the country is central to improving maternal and child health in Afghanistan. USAID funds eight of Afghanistan?s community midwifery programs and two hospital-based programs. All programs are accredited by the National Midwifery Education Accreditation Board to ensure they maintain high professional standards. Thanks to these programs and other health initiatives by U.S. and international donors, in partnership with the Ministry of Public Health, the infant mortality rate has fallen 22 percent since 2002.
http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.871.aspx (http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.871.aspx)
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but they're not there to build schools, roads and hospitals either.
One Step Closer to a Brighter Future
Kajaki Dam brings more power to the people of southern Afghanistan.
Kajaki Dam, Hilmand, Afghanistan | Tuesday, December 30, 2008
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/images/Photo.250.227.aspx)
Photo: USAID/Afghanistan
Kajaki Dam in Hilmand province.
(http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/images/Photo.250.228.aspx)
Photo: USAID/Afghanistan
Governor Mangal speaking to press at the dam.
A convoy of 4,000 coalition troops spent one week fighting off insurgent attacks to
clear the way for the delivery of a powerful new turbine to the Kajaki Dam in
southern Afghanistan on September 2, 2008.
The new turbine, plus the refurbishing of a second turbine, should triple the reliable
electric power output from 16.5 megawatts to 51 megawatts to Kajaki, Lashkar Gah,
and Kandahar. Other work on the dam will provide water for homes, agriculture,
and industry for the 1.5 million people in the Hilmand River Valley, improving livelihoods
and spurring economic growth.
The Kajaki Dam was first constructed by USAID during the 1950s and two turbines were
installed in the 1970s. The delivery of this third turbine was the latest move by USAID
to rejuvenate a major US assistance project to supply 6% of Afghanistan?s electrical power.
Although the project itself is funded by the United States Government, the
implementation would not have been possible without the assistance of Afghan National
Security Forces and ISAF troops, including the UK, US, Canada, Denmark and Australia,
providing security to the convoy.
Part of the national priority program in Afghanistan is aimed at providing electricity
sufficient for residents, industries and commerce through harnessing the energy of water.
Kajaki is one element of the overall plan to develop the Hilmand Valley and a crucial part of the reconstruction efforts for Afghanistan.
Functioning electrical and water supplies will enable farmers to produce higher yields,
will improve the services provided by community health facilities, and will provide children
light by which to read and learn.
http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.492.aspx (http://afghanistan.usaid.gov//en/Article.492.aspx)
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(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg0308j20100308064512.jpg)
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<<Yeah, I guess having armed German Wehrmacht stationed in the polling places, actually checking the ballots to make sure the Austrians "voted properly", was just "somewhat tainted".>>
First I ever heard that German soldiers checked the ballots in the polling stations, but I'm sure you have a source for it. The conventional story is that the Germans rounded up their opponents immediately after the invasion and sent them all to concentration camps, then held the vote. Kinda like the American invaders dragging tens or hundreds of thousands of poor unfortunate Iraqis out of their beds in the middle of the night, and torturing them to death in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo or more secret "black sites" and then holding "elections" which, mirabile dictu, are "won" by pro-American, pro-"democracy" candidates.
<<Got any evidence that the US did more than the Wehrmacht during the Anschluss vote to "taint" it? >>
ROTFLMFAO, no. No, I don't have any evidence that the US were worse than the Nazis or the Nazis worse than the Americans when it comes to staging phony "elections" under the gun barrels of invading armies. I don't have any evidence that Heinrich Himmler's shit stank any worse than Secretary Bill Gates' either. I don't even have evidence that the torture chambers of Abu Ghraib or America's "black sites" were better or worse than those of Dachau, where most of the anti-Nazi Austrians were sent after the German invasion. I guess that makes the Iraq "elections" as valid as the Anschluss plebiscite, and both of them models of democracy in action.
<<I had not heard that there were armed US forces checking each and every ballot in Iraq as the vote proceeded to make sure that everyone "voted properly"...>>
To which I guess any self-respecting Nazi or G.I. thug would have to reply, there's more than one way to skin a cat. We can leave it at that. Both invaders got what they wanted, didn't they?
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First I ever heard that German soldiers checked the ballots in the polling stations, but I'm sure you have a source for it.
No, it's not the first time you heard about it, because I provided the source for it a number of years ago, while we were still on PIC.
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I still don't remember it, but I don't doubt your word. So I forgot, BFD.
It seems like a particularly stupid way to rig an election, but I guess if they had anything but shit for brains, they wouldn't have been Nazis in the first place.
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No, it's not the first time you heard about it, because I provided the source for it a number of years ago, while we were still on PIC.
Hell, it's common enough information that it's in Wikipedia. Also, the contrasting information that places the Wehrmacht had not yet consolidated voted overwhelmingly for independence, another fact that you conveniently "forget" unless I remind you periodically.
While historians concur that the result itself was not manipulated, the voting process was neither free nor secret. Officials were present directly beside the voting booths and received the voting ballot by hand (in contrast to a secret vote where the voting ballot is inserted into a closed box). In some remote areas of Austria the referendum on the independence of Austria on 13 March had been held despite the Wehrmacht's presence in Austria (it took up to three days to occupy every part of Austria). For instance, in the village of Innervillgraten a majority of 95 percent voted for Austria's independence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#German_troops_march_into_Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#German_troops_march_into_Austria)
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d'oh
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This is the usual bullshit propaganda we hear from all Austrians after the end of WWII.
"Austria the reluctant bride." Fucking bullshit then and fucking bullshit now.
From the article that you yourself posted: <<While historians concur that the result itself was not manipulated, the voting process was neither free nor secret. Officials were present directly beside the voting booths and received the voting ballot by hand (in contrast to a secret vote where the voting ballot is inserted into a closed box).>>
TRANSLATION: By their ham-handed tactics, the Nazis massaged an 80% approval into a 99% approval. BFD.
Note, BTW, that the "officials" who received each ballot by hand in the polling stations were magically transformed by your posts into armed soldiers of the Wehrmacht.
Newspapers and photos of the era, for example of the crowd of 200,000 Austrians deliriously welcoming Hitler in the Heldenplatz tell the story of Austria's marriage a lot more truthfully than the Nazi apologists' post-war "reluctant bride" fabrications. Or were they all "trucked in" from Germany, over the border, to make their one appearance for the newsreel cameras?
I remember other newsreels - - huge, well-dressed crowds of Viennese, men, women and children, laughing and jeering as Jews were rounded up at gun-point and forced to scrub the sidewalks with toothbrushes, sing like birds from trees and bushes, and crawl on all fours in the parks, forced to eat the grass like animals till they barfed it all up. No, they couldn't have been Austrians either, especially the well-dressed matrons and their kids, they also had to have been bussed in from Germany, just to pose for the newsreels and then returned the same night, right?
Ever since the end of the war, the Austrians have been bombarding the dumb Americans with the same bullshit, the bad Germans forced the good Austrians into this union that nobody in Austria wanted and the dumb Americans ate it up like the grass those Jews were forced to eat in Vienna, only the dumb Americans digested it all whole, took in every lie and bullshit. The village of Scheisskopf am Berg, 98% against Anschluss, all 37 of them, proving definitively that the whole fucking country was against Anschluss. And the newsreels of the time?
Newsreels? What newsreels? I didn't see any newsreels.
Too bad this bullshit doesn't work on people who know better, who know what really happened.
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TRANSLATION: By their ham-handed tactics, the Nazis massaged an 80% approval into a 99% approval. BFD.
No, actually, the translation is that they counted the ballots that were handed in. But of course, with armed goons there to check every ballot to make sure every vote was "correct" it was a forgone conclusion. The result was not manipulated, the actual polling was manipulated, just as the article says.
"While historians concur that the result itself was not manipulated, the voting process was neither free nor secret."
I like how you missed the rest of the sentence; the voters were not able to cast a "free" vote - they had to vote for Anschluss.
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Note, BTW, that the "officials" who received each ballot by hand in the polling stations were magically transformed by your posts into armed soldiers of the Wehrmacht.
Err, who do you think they were? UN observers? The Wehrmacht were the only Germans in the country in large numbers.
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The story that you yourself posted states that "officials" were present at the polling stations. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that they were armed soldiers of the Wehrmacht. Armed soldiers of an invading army or of any army are rarely if ever referred to as "officials."
<<Err, who do you think they were? UN observers? >>
Probably, members of the Austrian (pan-German) Nazi Party, or the German Nazi Party, or both. Local or German Nazis with some civil service experience, local pro-Anschluss poll workers.
<<The Wehrmacht were the only Germans in the country in large numbers.>>
The article you posted mentions that Himmler and the SS were in Vienna ahead of the Wehrmacht to arrest local anti-Anschluss leaders. I'm sure that if there weren't enough pro-Hitler Austrians in the regular civil service, the Nazis could easily have imported enough German poll-watcher to make up the deficiency, although I really doubt that would have been necessary. The local (Austrian) Nazis seem to have been very well-organized and present at every level of Austrian society.
<<I like how you missed the rest of the sentence; the voters were not able to cast a "free" vote - they had to vote for Anschluss.>>
What YOU missed was that the result (Nazis win in a landslide) was not manipulated, since that result would have been the same had the polling been conducted freely and fairly, only the size of the landslide would have been different. As a matter of fact, the full article also shows how Schussnig himself felt he had to rig his own aborted plebiscite against the Nazis by excluding voters under the age of 24, indicating that a really fair vote, in the estimation of the anti-Anschluss Austrian leader, WOULD have been pro-Anschluss.
What you also seem to have missed completely were the photos and newsreels of the day, which clearly and unmistakeably depicted both the joy of the Austrian people, as they welcomed their Lord and Saviour, Adolf Hitler into their country and their animalistic sadism as they prepared the first of the torments of the Jews that would end in the gas chambers and furnaces of the Holocaust. Well, you couldn't have missed them, really, you just obviously have no credible explanation for them which can fit into the ridiculous fairy-tale that you have been constructing.
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The local (Austrian) Nazis seem to have been very well-organized and present at every level of Austrian society.
Actually, many had been arrested 4 years earlier and most of the rest had fled to Germany when the Austrian Nazi Party was outlawed. You forget that a defacto coup occurred the night before the Wehrmacht crossed the border; two officials that Hitler pressured Schuschnigg into appointing essentially took over the government from Schuschnigg.
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LOL. Still ignoring the newsreels and news photos that can't be swept out with the dust, I see. Who ya gonna believe, me or your own lyin' eyes?
Whatever high-level pro-German Nazi Austrian leaders may have been arrested or fled into Germany four years earlier, it sure looks to me like there was no shortage of local enthusiasts. Unless Dolfuss and/or his successor Schussnig were prepared to set up huge concentration camps, I seriously doubt that they had the capacity to lock up every single pro-German Nazi in the country, down to poll-watcher level or that these lower-level Nazis all fled into Germany. There were plenty of them left to man the polling stations despite your ridiculous theory that all of them were arrested or self-exiled.
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LOL. Still ignoring the newsreels and news photos that can't be swept out with the dust, I see. Who ya gonna believe, me or your own lyin' eyes?
I'll have to remember that you implicitly believe all the products of the Nazi propaganda machine.
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<<I'll have to remember that you implicitly believe all the products of the Nazi propaganda machine.>>
No, honest, I don't. I think Der Giftpilz (http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/thumb.htm (http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/thumb.htm)) was hilarious.
But you know, those newsreels and photos looked pretty realistic to me. Tell me, what makes you think they're fake? Was it that they never happened?
Do you think the whole Holocaust story is a fake too? That the Jews invented it all to make the Germans and their Austrian allies look bad?
Do you think Hitler was framed cuz he was an Austrian? What about Kaltenbrunner, was he framed too? What about Seyss-Inquart? Wrongfully convicted due to anti-Austrian bigotry? What about Amon Göth, the Viennese-born commandant of the concentration camp shown in Schindler's List, did he get a bum rap from the Poles? Was his hanging a grave miscarriage of Polish justice?
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But you know, those newsreels and photos looked pretty realistic to me. Tell me, what makes you think they're fake? Was it that they never happened?
I tend to distrust all the newsreels produced by the Nazi propaganda machine. I know that there was support for Hitler, mostly in Vienna and a couple other metro areas (Linz was another area with support) but the support for the Nazis was minimal to non-existent in the rural areas (most of Austria). Just because a few newsreels were produced in areas where there was support for Nazis does not mean that the sentiment existed universally. After all, viewing the "newsreels" for support of Obama in a few cities would tend to make people think that support for Obama was nearly universal in the US as well, and we know that that is not true.
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Fair enough. So you figure that the Nazi propaganda machine featured some of the areas of Austria in which Hitler was most popular and ignored the areas where he wasn't? And that this selectivity was then used to create a false impression that the whole country loved him?
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Fair enough. So you figure that the Nazi propaganda machine featured some of the areas of Austria in which Hitler was most popular and ignored the areas where he wasn't? And that this selectivity was then used to create a false impression that the whole country loved him?
Yup. That tends to be what they did elsewhere. It's known that the claims of "widespread rioting" in Austria and a request from the Austrian government to intercede were fake; don't see why they wouldn't fake a few newsreels as well.
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But they didn't fake newsreels of the "widespread rioting" or of the signing of the fake document. Those were false radio broadcasts by announcers who were simply reading out lies. Same with the fake document.
Those newsreels weren't fake at all - - they were real. Jews who escaped from Vienna even mention that stuff happening in their memoirs. Foreign correspondents in Vienna reported both on the abuse of the Jews and the rapturous welcome given to Hitler.
The only false note in them was that (according to you) they were only true for the regions depicted, but they were used to show that the entire country (including the parts never depicted in the newsreels) were equally wildly pro-Hitler.
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I am unsure what the argument is. Does Tee believe Nazi propaganda more than Ami, or it it the other way around?
It seems to me that the point is moot now in 2010, as all but a tiny number of Austrians who might have voted or not voted are deceased. I am pretty sure that the Anschluss is no longer seen as a good idea today. Of course, both countries are in the EU, so it hardly matters.
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Yet folks like Tee, salivate in Communist propoganda, advocating a governmental system that is JUST as bad, if not worse than Naziism
Go figure
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I think that some folks like to paint unvarnished newsreels and photos that have appeared in the international press as Nazi propaganda when it suits them to do so. As, for example, when one is seeking to disassociate oneself from the Nazis after the war. Nothing complex about it. The Austrians for example - - first they were in bed with Hitler for years, then they didn't even know the gentleman. Losing the war and seeing the odometer rolling back on that Thousand Year Reich might have had something to do with it.
The Anschluss was raised as an example by Ami when I challenged the validity of an Iraqi "election" held under the guns of an occupying U.S. army. Smart move - - if I applied the same logic to the post-invasion Austrian plebiscite, with a pro-Hitler winning margin of 98 or 99%, it would mean the Austrians were NEVER in bed with Hitler. Unfortunately, the newsreels showing a joyous Vienna welcoming the Nazis and mercilessly persecuting the Jews were all too true. What Ami failed to realize was that the Nazi propaganda ministry, while adept at fabricating and publicizing false events as needed to burnish Germany's image, was also perfectly capable of capturing and spreading images of real-life Nazi successes when they didn't need to be fabricated.
Although according to Ami, the Nazis did their filming in urban areas where Hitler supposedly made his best showings in the polls, not in the more conservative, Roman Catholic countryside, which preferred its fascists and anti-Semites to be of the homegrown variety, not the German import variety. Not that such prejudice would have applied to Hitler personally, for obvious reasons.
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I am unsure what the argument is. Does Tee believe Nazi propaganda more than Ami, or it it the other way around?
I guess Tee's last post post shows which it is.
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I have seen the celebration of the Nazi takeover in Vienna, and those people surely seemed truly joyous.
On the other hand, it was pretty clear that if one were to protest the Anschluss, one would be taken aside and pummeled and thrashed without mercy. So those who liked Herr Adolph came out and cheered, and those that did not, not wishing to be pummeled and thrashed, wisely stayed at home.
I find the attitude toward the German defeat in WWI defeat to be somewhat similar to the way Americans related to the rout in Vietnam: they blamed it on their fellow Americans: "we didnlt really LOSE the war, we just were not sufficiently ruthless. We should have nuked them, we woulda coulda shoulda."
The reaction to the Nazi defeat was sort of different., since Herr Adolf said at the end, that the German people were insufficiently courageous to have won, and deserved to be defeated and humiliated and should cease to exist for said cowardice.
At my college, we had an AF Major who taught Airway Science that was gung ho on everything the rightwing said. He worshipped Lintball. And he said that Hitler's biggest mistake was to assume that all Germans were as brave as he was
But still, they were seriously outnumbered, and taking one the Russians after proving to be unable to destroy the RAF was a major error. I am a lot more glad that Hitler lost than Major Baker, I am sure.
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<<At my college, we had an AF Major who taught Airway Science that was gung ho on everything the rightwing said. He worshipped Lintball. And he said that Hitler's biggest mistake was to assume that all Germans were as brave as he was>>
It's always revealing to see what the U.S. military really thinks of Hitler and the Nazis. Most of them have sense enough to keep it to themselves. Patton got into a lot of hot water when he ridiculed denazification programs on the basis that the difference between Nazis and non-Nazis in Germany was like the difference between Republicans and Democrats back home.
What can ya do? Authoritarian "brains" (if that's what they are) gravitate to other authoritarian brains. Those who are trained to resolve problems by force gravitate towards others of like training and inclination. The universal brotherhood of men at arms.
Best argument I ever saw for civilian control of the military. In the U.S.S.R. they did it with political commissars who had the power to shoot politically incorrect regular army officers in the field. Under proper civilian control the Red Army was truly an irresistible force.
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I think it is safe to say that had all the Germans been as brave as Hitler was said to have been in WWI, winning WWII would have been more difficult. But still the Gremans did not have the numbers, and as I said, Hitler was not exactly a clever strategist, taking on both the Soviets AND the Brits at the same time. NOT WISE.
Major Baker claimed to be a Chippewa Indian. He looked about as Indian as Bob Cummings, if you remember him. Not a Chief Iron Eyes. But his theory was that SOME Indians had migrated from Europe at an earlier period, while others (which he thought included all the Mexican and South American Indians) came from Asia at a later date. He really dug Eskimos, as his favorite sport was kayaking. Strangely, he did not think Eskimos looked "Asian". I guess his theory was that there were two groups of Indians: the "Like me Indians" and the less favored "not like me Indians". An interesting character.
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In the U.S.S.R. they did it with political commissars who had the power to shoot politically incorrect regular army officers in the field.
Umm isn't this resolving problems by force and therefore authoritarian which i believe you just pooh poohed.
What can ya do? Authoritarian "brains" (if that's what they are) gravitate to other authoritarian brains. Those who are trained to resolve problems by force gravitate towards others of like training and inclination. The universal brotherhood of men at arms.
Why yes you did.
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<<Major Baker claimed to be a Chippewa Indian. He looked about as Indian as Bob Cummings, if you remember him.>>
Yeah sure I remember Bob Cummings. A good comic actor of the Forties and Fifties, in in the over-the-top style of those days and before that a Hollywood leading man. Always very boyish or youthful good looks. Glib, fast-talking. IIRC, his hair could have been Indian, had it been a little straighter. I had a close friend and business associate from the Rice Lake - Peterborough part of Ontario who was 1/4 Chippewa (up here, "Ojibway," from the same linguistic root-word) who for years I had just assumed was Anglo-Saxon. In retrospect, the only giveaway was the hair - - thick, straight, black and lustrous. His was always cut short, but he said that in Peterborough, for the old-timers there (as opposed to the post-war immigrants) anyone with that kind of hair might just as well have worn a feathered head-dress.
OTOH, one of our kids' live-in nannies was a full-blooded Ojibway woman, married to an Englishman and the daughter and grand-daughter of chiefs. Her grandfather lost a leg at Dieppe. Very, very Mongolian-type features, unmistakeable in all three generations.
Your major is either a fake Indian or maybe has some minimal degree of "Chippewa" ancestry - - the theory of European Indians is pure hooey, this is the first time I ever heard it, but it sounds like the kind of "British Israel" nonsense I used to hear a long time ago. (That is a kind of religion claiming that the real Biblical Hebrews migrated to Britain, and became "the English," as can be deduced from a study of British place-names, and today's Jews, rather than being the descendants of the Biblical Hebrews, are a bunch of fucking imposters.)
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But his theory was that SOME Indians had migrated from Europe at an earlier period, while others (which he thought included all the Mexican and South American Indians) came from Asia at a later date.
So, he was ahead of the curve? That's the current thinking among anthropologists... The initial settlement of the Americas came from Europe and was later displaced and absorbed by an Asian migration.
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the theory of European Indians is pure hooey, this is the first time I ever heard it
Well, now you can say that you've heard of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis)
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That's an interesting article. Actually I had heard of the Solutrean theory before but I forgot it because it seemed to have been disproven. When I followed your link, and re-read the material, it looks like the theory wasn't so much disproven as challenged. I'd say right now it's problematical and the odds are against it, but I wouldn't say it was all hooey. It's an intriguing theory that might have some truth to it.
Apparently no Solutrean human remains have been found to date, but that would be a make-or-break moment for the theory, if they could get enough DNA for testing.
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I'd say right now it's problematical and the odds are against it, but I wouldn't say it was all hooey. It's an intriguing theory that might have some truth to it.
It does explain a number of things that the "Clovis First" hypothesis does not.
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What do you think it explains?
Also, how many ways can there be for primitive men or women to chip stone into spear-points? What's so improbable about the Clovis culture independently stumbling upon the same technique as the Solutreans did?
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What do you think it explains?
The radiocarbon dating problems with the sites in Monte Verde, Chile (apparently, the Asians migrated all the way to Chile 1,000 years before they settled North America?) Also, the radiocarbon dates from the Topper site in South Carolina appear to predate the land bridge from Siberia that the Clovis people used to migrate from Asia, by well over 10,000 years. A number of other sites have problems with dating, several having been dated to well before the Clovis culture even appeared in Asia, much less before they traveled to North America.
There are lots of indicators that the Clovis people were not the first settlers of the Americas.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f1/Kennewickmanstanford.jpg/220px-Kennewickmanstanford.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man)
Who does that look like?
This fixed the age of the skeleton at approximately 8,400 radiocarbon years or 9,300 calendar years, not the nineteenth century, as had originally been assumed.[4] After studying the bones, Chatters concluded they belonged to a Caucasoid male about 68 inches (173 cm) tall who had died in his mid fifties.[4]
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(http://debategate.com/new3dhs/stewart.jpg)
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Who does that look like?
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Gawd! the Native Americans are all descended from Jean-Luc Piccard!
Caught in one of those defective transporter/warp speed anomalies, I'll bet!