Author Topic: Solicitor General Elena Kagan  (Read 11727 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2010, 08:45:55 PM »
Quote
I posted another opinion peice that had prescious little to do with Kagan's role on recruiters, and far more to do with Obama's judgement in picks

Right.

Thus this is the lead paragraph.

President Obama went back to the radical bullpen for his second Supreme Court nominee. Solicitor General Elena Kagan, former dean of Harvard Law School, is a legal activist who tried to boot recruiters off Harvard?s campus because of the military?s homosexuality policy.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2010, 08:50:08 PM »
And she did try.  She failed, thanks to subsequent judicial rulings.  Now how about the meat of the peice
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2010, 09:01:14 PM »
Yeah it certainly is radical to follow current law.

This whole painting her as a radical based on her actions at Harvard is a built on a lie.


Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2010, 10:50:16 PM »
Please explain to me how she tried to boot military recruiters off campus when it was Harvard policy from 1979 onward almost consistently to limit recruiters on campus?

Her critics are going to end up looking stupid over this, because they aren't being honest.

Better to attack her over her lack of judicial experience, at least that is an honest argument.


When she assumed leadership at Harvard , she might have changed policys that she disagreed with.

Her position is being spun as freindly and respectfull of the military , I think that is streached like taffy.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2010, 11:00:59 PM »
Quote
Her position is being spun as freindly and respectfull of the military , I think that is streached like taffy.

No. I think she believes that gays should be allowed to serve openly in the military. 

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2010, 11:21:04 PM »
Quote
Her position is being spun as freindly and respectfull of the military , I think that is streached like taffy.

No. I think she believes that gays should be allowed to serve openly in the military. 


So if the military agrees with that, she will then respect them?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2010, 11:43:19 AM »
Yeah it certainly is radical to follow current law.  This whole painting her as a radical based on her actions at Harvard is a built on a lie.

Yea, no radical here.  Just a mild left leaner, right?


Kagan Says "Governmental Motive" is Proper Focus in First Amendment Cases, Backs Limits on Speech That Can "Harm"
Wednesday, May 12, 2010
By Matt Cover, Staff Writer


Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan said the high court should be focused on ferreting out improper governmental motives when deciding First Amendment cases, arguing that the government?s reasons for restricting free speech were what mattered most and not necessarily the effect of those restrictions on speech.
 
Kagan, the solicitor general of the United States under President Obama, expressed that idea in her 1996 article in the University of Chicago Law Review entitled, "Private Speech, Public Purpose: The Role of Governmental Motive in First Amendment Doctrine."
 
In her article, Kagan said that examination of the motives of government is the proper approach for the Supreme Court when looking at whether a law violates the First Amendment. While not denying that other concerns, such as the impact of a law, can be taken into account, Kagan argued that governmental motive is "the most important" factor.
 
In doing so, Kagan constructed a complex framework that can be used by the Court to determine whether or not Congress has restricted First Amendment freedoms with improper intent.  
 
She defined improper intent as prohibiting or restricting speech merely because Congress or a public majority dislikes either the message or the messenger, or because the message or messenger may be harmful to elected officials or their political priorities.
 
The first part of this framework involves restrictions that appear neutral, such as campaign finance laws, but in practice amount to an unconstitutional restriction. Kagan wrote that the effect of such legislation can be taken as evidence of improper motive because such motives often play a part in bringing the legislation into being.
 
"The answer to this question involves viewing the Buckley principle [that government cannot balance between competing speakers] as an evidentiary tool designed to aid in the search for improper motive," Kagan wrote. "The Buckley principle emerges not from the view that redistribution of speech opportunities is itself an illegitimate end, but from the view that governmental actions justified as redistributive devices often (though not always) stem partly from hostility or sympathy toward ideas or, even more commonly, from self-interest."
 
Kagan notes, however, that such "redistribution of speech" is not "itself an illegitimate end," but that government may not restrict it to protect incumbent politicians or because it dislikes a particular speaker or a particular message.

She argued that government can restrict speech if it believes that speech might cause harm, either directly or by inciting others to do harm.
 
Laws that only incidentally affect speech are constitutional, Kagan said, because the government]s motive in enacting them is not the restriction of First Amendment freedom but the prohibition of some other, unprotected, activity.
 
She argues in the piece that a law banning fires in public places is not unconstitutional, even if it means that protesters cannot burn flags in public. A law outlawing flag burning protests, however, would be, because the motive is to stop a particular protest.
 
Kagan also argued that the Supreme Court should not be concerned with maintaining or protecting any marketplace of ideas because it is impossible for the court to determine what constitutes an ideal marketplace, contending that other types of laws, such as property laws, can also affect the structure of the marketplace of ideas and that a restriction on speech may "un-skew" the market, rather than tilt it unfavorably.
 
"If there is an 'overabundance' of an idea in the absence of direct governmental action -- which there well might be when compared with some ideal state of public debate -- then action disfavoring that idea might 'un-skew,' rather than skew, public discourse," Kagan wrote.
 
Instead, the Supreme Court should focus on whether a speaker's message is harming the public, argued Kagan in her article.
 
While Kagan does not offer an exhaustive definition of 'harm,' she does offer examples of speech that may be regulated, such as incitement to violence, hate-speech, threatening or "fighting" words
.
 
The government, she concludes, may not express its disfavor with an opinion or speaker by burdening them with restrictions or prohibitions, unless it can show that their speech is causing some type of public harm.
 
"The doctrine of impermissible motive, viewed in this light, holds that the government may not signify disrespect for certain ideas and respect for others through burdens on expression," Kagan wrote. "This does not mean that the government may never subject particular ideas to disadvantage. The government indeed may do so, if acting upon neutral, harm-based reasons."
 
Kagan says that government is also prohibited from treating two identically harmful speakers differently. To do so, she argues, would be to violate what she views as the principle of equality -- making the unequal restriction unconstitutional.
 
"But the government may not treat differently two ideas causing identical harms on the ground that thereby conveying the view that one is less worthy, less valuable, less entitled to a hearing than the other," she wrote. "To take such action -- in effect, to violate a norm of ideological equality -- would be to load the restriction of speech with a meaning that transcends the restriction's material consequence."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:22:25 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2010, 12:32:40 PM »
Quote
So if the military agrees with that, she will then respect them?

I don't see where she has shown disrespect to them, unless disagreeing with policy equals disrespecting those you disagree with.

Have we come to that?


sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2010, 12:34:21 PM »
Now time to get to the more important considerations.  Nope, not her compotence or Judicial intellect.  Per Sen Schumer and company, it's her ideology that's most important.  Look forward however, to watching the rope-a-dope form of her not answering questions that would demonstrate just how far left she leans.  Likely contrary to her record and past rhetoric, look instead for alot of answers that reference how she does not support judicial activism.  She will likely claim support for a case by case ruling, and that past constitutional rulings are largely to be sacrosanct, thus RvW is to be off the table as far as consideration of any reviewing

Senators to query Kagan, but don't expect answers

Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan got a pledge from a key Democrat to help smooth her path to confirmation, while the top Senate Republican said she must prove she wouldn't be a rubber stamp for the White House.

Sitting beside her in his office, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., told Kagan he looked forward to making sure her transition from solicitor general to justice was "as smooth as possible."

Their meeting came as Kagan, President Barack Obama's choice to replace retiring Justice John Paul Stevens, kicked off a day of Capitol Hill courtesy calls to court the votes she'll need to be confirmed.

But Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, said Kagan must prove that her current post on Obama's team wouldn't skew her rulings to favor his policies.

"It's my hope that the Obama Administration doesn't think the ideal Supreme Court nominee is someone who would rubber stamp its policies," McConnell said. "Americans want to know that Ms. Kagan will be independent, that she won't prejudge cases based on her personal opinions, that she'll treat every one equally, as the judicial oath requires."

Kagan was to meet next with McConnell, with visits later in the day to Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., top Judiciary Republican Sen. Jeff Sessions of Alabama, and three other top committee members.

But if any of them want to know Kagan's views on hot-button legal issues _ like the legality of the White House's new health care law, the constitutionality of gay marriage, or Arizona's new immigration law _ they're unlikely to learn much.

If Kagan follows the playbook for nominees, she won't be speaking her mind about legal, political or social issues raised by the senators whose votes she needs for confirmation.

Unless she breaks the traditional silence of other recent Supreme Court nominees _ something the nominee herself called for in 1995 _ senators will have to vote on elevating Kagan to the nation's highest court without finding out where she really stands on today's touchy topics.

Republicans are warning that a lack of candor could be detrimental to her getting bipartisan approval.

"Ms. Kagan failed to answer many questions posed by senators prior to her confirmation as solicitor general," Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said. "This failure led many members to oppose her nomination. I hope that she will now more willingly respond to reasonable and relevant questions."

But ever since Robert Bork expansively explained his theories of the law to the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1987 and failed to get Senate confirmation, Supreme Court nominees have kept their personal opinions about controversial questions to themselves as much as possible.

Stevens, the man Kagan wants to replace, says that is the way it is supposed to be.

"It's quite unfortunate to be trying to pin down judges on particular issues," Stevens said while speaking at a judicial conference last week. "What they've said in published opinions is one thing, but speculating about issues is another."

Stevens was nominated less than three years after the landmark Roe v. Wade abortion decision in 1973 but wasn't asked a single question about abortion at his confirmation hearing. He also recalled longtime Senate Judiciary Chairman Strom Thurmond of South Carolina bringing him to his office to talk about Thurmond's view of capital punishment.

Thurmond never asked Stevens his opinion, thinking that would be improper.


Article


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2010, 12:54:11 PM »
Quote
Yea, no radical here.  Just a mild left leaner, right?

What is radical about her take on first amendment issues?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2010, 01:18:18 PM »
The Bill of Rights is sacrosanct.  I can't stress how important to this country the 1st and 2nd amendments are.  Here you have a lawyer, arguing vague reference to potential "harm", from certain speech, that would necessitate the highest court in the land to subjugate & restrict such speech

It doesn't get much more radical than that, outside of hypothetical rhetoric to ban certain words/speech, deemed as "harmful".  But i doubt you'll get that on-the-record proclaimation.  At least not until she's a lifetime member, on that high court
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2010, 01:41:50 PM »
Quote
The Bill of Rights is sacrosanct.

No it isn't. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater, because of potential harm. And i doubt Kagan had a thing to do with that ruling.

If you read her opinion, she enhances the first amendment, because she urges the court to not only examine what speech is being infringed, but why the government felt it necessary to infringe that speech.

Now let's fast forward a bit. Suppose the Obama Administration tried to shut down the Tea Party movement based on the actions of a few of their outlier members. Would the courts be wise to examine why the administration wanted to shut them down as well as what speech was so the trigger for that action. Could the fact that the movement was a danger to public perception concerning the administration and its ability to forge a majority to push through it's policies ( perhaps healthcare or deficit spending) have any bearing on whether the administration was correct in infringing the movements speech rights?

Kagan advised that the definition of public harm should not be narrowed to the point that "public" was a particular party or administration, Public had to be broader than that.






 

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2010, 02:15:51 PM »
Yelling fire isn't what the 1st amendment is about, and you know it.  So does Kagan
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2010, 02:27:22 PM »
Yelling fire isn't what the 1st amendment is about, and you know it.  So does Kagan

Then why did Oliver Wendell Holmes mention it in an opinion concerning a First Amendment Case?

Quote
"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a popular metaphor and frequent misquoting of Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919. The misquote fails to mention falsely shouting fire to highlight that speech which is merely dangerous and false which can be distinguished from truthful but also dangerous. The quote is used as an example of speech which serves no conceivable useful purpose and is extremely and imminently dangerous so that resort to the courts or administrative procedures is not practical and expresses the permissible limitations on free speech consistent with the terms of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Quote
The Schenck case

Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:

    The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.

Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!"; one may, depending on the law in operation, even be obliged to. Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2010, 02:54:37 PM »
Yelling fire isn't what the 1st amendment is about, and you know it.  So does Kagan

Then why did Oliver Wendell Holmes mention it in an opinion concerning a First Amendment Case?

Can't tell you why.  I can only go by what the Founders intentions were, which had prescious little to do with fires.  It specifically was in referenced to political speech, and the clear limitations Government can place on it.  It's why campaigns can get away wilth outright lies aimed at opposing parties, candidates, and/or positions, because it is protected.  When Kagan argues about the possible "harm" coming from free speech, its generic, and is applicable to anything and everything speech, political speech included, if some higher power deems it "harmful" in some potential form

THAT's why its such wreckless and radical rhetoric

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle