Author Topic: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge  (Read 2314 times)

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sirs

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2007, 03:09:06 AM »
It does no good to show Tee contrary info & facts regarding his pathetic efforts at repeating Bush lied us into war, Plane.  The mountain of facts completely overwhelm his rhetoric as do the multiple commissions & official conclusions making it painfully clear how no intel was manipulated, how no one was pushed to make innacurate claims, and I'm not even going to repeat the massive amount of comments & conclusions made by the left, (a pair you referenced as well) that mirrored exactly what Bush has been saying, in arguably harsher terms.  No, Tee's got to feel better with his already made up mind & alternate reality.  Template is set; Bush is evil, a moronic version of Hitler, who stole the election, and lied us into war.  Must ignore any/everything that contradicts that mindset, even to the point of making oneself literally look foolish     :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2007, 08:01:40 AM »
<<"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

<<"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." ? President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

<<Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." ? Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998>>

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Very interesting dates you refer to:  Feb. 4, 1998; Feb. 17, 1998; Feb. 18, 1998.

Here's another date for you guys (plane and sirs):  January 16, 1998.

<<On January 16, 1998, following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, members of the PNAC, including Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Robert Zoellick drafted an open letter to President Bill Clinton, posted on its website, urging President Clinton to remove Saddam Hussein from power using U.S. diplomatic, political and military power. The signers argue that Saddam would pose a threat to the United States, its Middle East allies and oil resources in the region if he succeeded in maintaining what they asserted was a stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction. They also state: "we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections" and "American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council." They argue that an Iraq war would be justified by Hussein's defiance of UN "containment" policy and his persistent threat to U.S. interests.[7]>>

(from the Wikipedia article on PNAC)

It should be plain by now, despite sirs' mockery (wherein I pin the whole thing on the "evil, moronic" Bush) that Bush is not so much the instigator as the front man for what is probably the most evil and dangerous cabal of fascists and militarists ever to insert themselves into the power structure of your country.

The pattern, of course, is plain and decades old, going back to the beginnings of the Korean and Viet Nam Wars.  A cadre of fascist-minded Republicans goad the Democrats with charges of "softness" - - soft on communism then, soft on "terrorism" today, soft on whatever enemy will replace "terrorism" tomorrow.  The Democrats, being the gutless cowards they are, hopefully react, to the enormous profit of certain vested interests, by plunging the country into yet another disastrous and unnecessary war.

The problem with the Clinton administration, however, was that Clinton was actually smarter than the fascists who were trying to goad him.  He did not fall for their bullshit.  However, he couldn't exactly ignore the "danger" or look like a "terrorist appeaser," so he did what he had to do - - he talked tough.  He gave the morons of America something that they wanted to hear.  What can I tell you?  You gotta do what you gotta do.  It's politics.  Between going to war to appease his right-wing critics or uttering a few words to impress the morons of Mississippi, the Billster chose the lesser of the two evils.

Plane

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2007, 05:10:37 AM »
<<"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

<<"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." ? President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

<<Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." ? Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998>>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting dates you refer to:  Feb. 4, 1998; Feb. 17, 1998; Feb. 18, 1998.

Here's another date for you guys (plane and sirs):  January 16, 1998.

<<On January 16, 1998, following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, members of the PNAC, including Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Robert Zoellick drafted an open letter to President Bill Clinton, posted on its website, urging President Clinton to remove Saddam Hussein from power using U.S. diplomatic, political and military power. The signers argue that Saddam would pose a threat to the United States, its Middle East allies and oil resources in the region if he succeeded in maintaining what they asserted was a stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction. They also state: "we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections" and "American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council." They argue that an Iraq war would be justified by Hussein's defiance of UN "containment" policy and his persistent threat to U.S. interests.[7]>>

(from the Wikipedia article on PNAC)

It should be plain by now, despite sirs' mockery (wherein I pin the whole thing on the "evil, moronic" Bush) that Bush is not so much the instigator as the front man for what is probably the most evil and dangerous cabal of fascists and militarists ever to insert themselves into the power structure of your country.

The pattern, of course, is plain and decades old, going back to the beginnings of the Korean and Viet Nam Wars.  A cadre of fascist-minded Republicans goad the Democrats with charges of "softness" - - soft on communism then, soft on "terrorism" today, soft on whatever enemy will replace "terrorism" tomorrow.  The Democrats, being the gutless cowards they are, hopefully react, to the enormous profit of certain vested interests, by plunging the country into yet another disastrous and unnecessary war.

The problem with the Clinton administration, however, was that Clinton was actually smarter than the fascists who were trying to goad him.  He did not fall for their bullshit.  However, he couldn't exactly ignore the "danger" or look like a "terrorist appeaser," so he did what he had to do - - he talked tough.  He gave the morons of America something that they wanted to hear.  What can I tell you?  You gotta do what you gotta do.  It's politics.  Between going to war to appease his right-wing critics or uttering a few words to impress the morons of Mississippi, the Billster chose the lesser of the two evils.


I don't know what you mean, President Clinton did commit acts of war against the Saddam Hussein Regime , he just chose means that had no chance of defeating Saddam. Saddam could loose a missle battery an twenty solders every week forever. But it was not makeing the US popular in Iraq.



I consider your point that "most mature, responsible, sane and normal people now realize that Bush & Co. manufactured a fear of WMD to create an excuse to invade Iraq to gain control of the oil. " is busted on the proof that the misbehavior of Saddam was multidecade at the time of Bush's election and it was understood so by the previous Administration which Bush certainly did not controll.

On the other hand, if we indeed controled Clinton from the right, I can be sanguine about another Clinton presidency , can't I?


http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/040816

"In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad. In the 4 years since the inspectors, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaida members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

"It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein wiill continue to increase his capability to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East which, as we know all too well, affects American security."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

Congressional Record ? Sen. Hillary Clinton
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 05:15:35 AM by Plane »

Michael Tee

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2007, 10:53:52 AM »
<< President Clinton did commit acts of war against the Saddam Hussein Regime , he just chose means that had no chance of defeating Saddam. Saddam could loose a missle battery an twenty solders every week forever. But it was not makeing the US popular in Iraq.>>

My point was that Clinton threw a little red meat to the war-mongers but nothing that committed the U.S. to an invasion, much less to the sacrifice of thousands of American lives and the loss of half a trillion of American dollars.  If you can compare Clinton's response to a demand for war on Saddam with Bush's response to the same demand, you see the difference between a clever statesman and politician on the one hand and a blundering, blustering idiot on the other.

<<I consider your point that "most mature, responsible, sane and normal people now realize that Bush & Co. manufactured a fear of WMD to create an excuse to invade Iraq to gain control of the oil. " is busted on the proof that the misbehavior of Saddam was multidecade at the time of Bush's election and it was understood so by the previous Administration which Bush certainly did not controll.>>

Ahh, plane, you're just not listening.  It was the neo-cons and the war-mongers who hyped up the "threat" of Saddam Hussein, and they did this when they were out of power as well as continuing this after they got into power.  Clinton dealt with their bullshit by talking tough and taking minimal steps to deal with the problem, which was actually a nonexistent problem.  It was the line of least resistance, pretend to take the bullshit at face value, avoid a public dispute which could only result in his being smeared as a "terrorist appeaser" and take a few symbolic swipes at Saddam to keep the right satisfied while not giving an inch on their demands for war.  Very clever and very statesmanlike.  Bush OTOH did not have the brains to see through their bullshit and plunged the country into an unwinnable war, with disastrous consequences for U.S. prestige.

<<On the other hand, if we indeed controled Clinton from the right, I can be sanguine about another Clinton presidency , can't I?>>

You CONTROLLED Clinton?  From the right?  Read what I just wrote.  He PLAYED you, like a fish.

Thanks BTW for your Hillary quote.   It proved what I've been saying all along, she's a part of the problem, not part of the solution, and SHE'S GOT TO GO.  As do the entire DLC.  Maybe they could join up with Lieberman and form an entirely new party, DFWAF, Democrats For War And Fascism.

BT

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Re: From the Anbar Awakening to the Surge
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2007, 11:33:22 AM »
Quote
Maybe they could join up with Lieberman and form an entirely new party, DFWAF, Democrats For War And Fascism.

Wonder how they would fair in a head to head against DFAAS, Democrats for Appeasement and Surrender?