Author Topic: What the West Needs to Know About Islam  (Read 21815 times)

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_JS

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2007, 09:50:49 AM »
I seem to remember that many Jews in the early stages of WWII said idientifcal things about "rumors of cleansing". They found, as we might, that sticking your head in the sand is NOT an an effective tactic. This pacificism I continually sense in your posts, JS, do not serve you or anyone well. PAcificsm can lead to its own path to death and destruction and then you are left with "Gee, I never dreamed it would be like this!"

I respectfully disagree with this approach. Think: the Allies placating Hitler before WWII, as an example, of executing a policy of too much pacificism can lead to worse ultimate results.

Do you know what else the Nazis did Professor?

They exaggerated threats to the country to spur nationalism and they demonized pacifists. Yet, that aspect of Nazism is often overlooked in America, Australia, and other ex-colonies.

Let me cite you some examples:

Quote
"Nov.29, In Wadenberg, Germany, a court has taken parents away from their children because they refused to teach them Nazi ideology. The parents are pacifists, members of a Christian sect called International Bible Researchers. The court accused them of creating an environment where the children would grow up 'enemies of the state.' The children were delivered into the state's care.

"The judge delivered a lengthy statement reading in part, 'The law as a racial and national instrument entrusts German parents with the education of their children only under certain conditions, namely, that they educate them in the fashion that the nation and state expect.'"

Quote
"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
- Hermann Goering


Quote
In the 1930s Remarque's books were banned in Germany by the government. All Quiet on the Western Front and The Road Back were among the works consigned to be publicly burnt in 1933 by the Nazis. Stores were ordered to stop selling his books. The film's premiere was disrupted by Nazi gangs; Remarque was accused of pacifism.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2007, 09:53:41 AM »
If I understand your question, you are asking "How many people have died from international terrorism according to our very own State Department?"

If thisis the case, I am not really sure what you mean. Can you please clarify?

The U.S. State Department prints a report on deaths due to international terrorism around the world. I'm asking how many died in a recent year. The largest number on record was in 2001 (three guesses as to why) and it was a bit over 3000 people. That number has fallen since then.

But I'd like to see a chart of the deaths over the past decade or so. Then we can use some facts and real data compared with the doom and gloom you and others here are presenting us with.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2007, 10:34:03 AM »
I seem to remember that many Jews in the early stages of WWII said idientifcal things about "rumors of cleansing". They found, as we might, that sticking your head in the sand is NOT an an effective tactic. This pacificism I continually sense in your posts, JS, do not serve you or anyone well. PAcificsm can lead to its own path to death and destruction and then you are left with "Gee, I never dreamed it would be like this!"

I respectfully disagree with this approach. Think: the Allies placating Hitler before WWII, as an example, of executing a policy of too much pacificism can lead to worse ultimate results.

Do you know what else the Nazis did Professor?

They exaggerated threats to the country to spur nationalism and they demonized pacifists. Yet, that aspect of Nazism is often overlooked in America, Australia, and other ex-colonies.

Let me cite you some examples:

Quote
"Nov.29, In Wadenberg, Germany, a court has taken parents away from their children because they refused to teach them Nazi ideology. The parents are pacifists, members of a Christian sect called International Bible Researchers. The court accused them of creating an environment where the children would grow up 'enemies of the state.' The children were delivered into the state's care.

"The judge delivered a lengthy statement reading in part, 'The law as a racial and national instrument entrusts German parents with the education of their children only under certain conditions, namely, that they educate them in the fashion that the nation and state expect.'"

Quote
"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
- Hermann Goering


Quote
In the 1930s Remarque's books were banned in Germany by the government. All Quiet on the Western Front and The Road Back were among the works consigned to be publicly burnt in 1933 by the Nazis. Stores were ordered to stop selling his books. The film's premiere was disrupted by Nazi gangs; Remarque was accused of pacifism.



I know, JS, but how does that invalidate my statement?
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

The_Professor

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2007, 10:38:29 AM »
If I understand your question, you are asking "How many people have died from international terrorism according to our very own State Department?"

If thisis the case, I am not really sure what you mean. Can you please clarify?

The U.S. State Department prints a report on deaths due to international terrorism around the world. I'm asking how many died in a recent year. The largest number on record was in 2001 (three guesses as to why) and it was a bit over 3000 people. That number has fallen since then.

But I'd like to see a chart of the deaths over the past decade or so. Then we can use some facts and real data compared with the doom and gloom you and others here are presenting us with.

Good thought. I do not know the numbers either.

Doom and gloom? Well, I am not sure about that. I do believe that radical Islam IS a danger to the West, primarily because the West is too comfortable being who and what they are. Living peacebly with Islamic neighbors is no problem; I've done that before. I have a neighbor who is a Mormon one that is a Jehovah's Witness and that works fine too. But then again, I cannot remember when Mormons or JW's destroyed buildings like the World Trade Center either.
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

_JS

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2007, 10:39:15 AM »
Because this could just as easily be an extreme exaggeration of the situation as opposed to a case of sticking one's head in the sand about Islam. I have yet to read anything that leads me to believe that all of Islam is dangerous and there is a rising tide of a coming war against Islam.

Remember, during the Cold War the evangelical eschatology of choice was an armageddon against the great peril of communism. ;)
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2007, 10:48:29 AM »
Well, I guess only time will tell...

However, if Islamic terrorists do another 9-11, will you still be this complacent?
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

_JS

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2007, 11:03:59 AM »
Well, I guess only time will tell...

However, if Islamic terrorists do another 9-11, will you still be this complacent?

Don't confuse calm analysis for complacence. Similarly, don't confuse knee-jerk reactions for positive action.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2007, 11:07:32 AM »
Deal.
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2007, 01:26:44 PM »
Don't confuse calm analysis for complacence.

specifically what would you do to counter and respond to another 9/11?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

_JS

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2007, 01:42:44 PM »
Don't confuse calm analysis for complacence.

specifically what would you do to counter and respond to another 9/11?

I'd use my jedi mind powers to defeat terrorism.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2007, 02:17:58 PM »
"I'd use my jedi mind powers to defeat terrorism"

exactly what I thought


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2007, 05:57:05 PM »
<<specifically what would you do to counter and respond to another 9/11?>>

I'd urge my political representatives to get all Americans out of Iraq in the next sixty days with or without their equipment, pay major war crimes reparations to the Iraqi people, adopt a fair and balanced policy towards the Israeli-Palestinian question and pull out support for dictatorships such as Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait unless they show real and immediate progress towards democracy.  I'd make sure that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Perle, Woflowicz, Feith, Powell and others went on trial before the International Court of Justice for war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture, plotting and waging a war of unprovoked aggression and generally show that when America preaches a world of obedience to law, it means a world of obedience to law.

And if I couldn't do all of those things, then I'd triple airport, border and harbour security, stay away from large crowds and public transportation and tell my kids to avoid the big cities.

The_Professor

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2007, 07:55:14 PM »
Don't confuse calm analysis for complacence.

specifically what would you do to counter and respond to another 9/11?

I'd use my jedi mind powers to defeat terrorism.

Funny, but do you have any ideas? If so, I would like to hear them.
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

yellow_crane

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2007, 09:19:00 PM »
<<Wow. I'm just amazed that I survived living in an Islamic country for a year. They must have missed me when they were searching out non-Muslims to kill.>>

LOL.  We are very good friends with a couple a little older than we are, the husband is an Eastern European Jew and the wife is from a large Jewish Iranian family whose ancestors have lived in Iran for centuries.  "They" must have missed a lot of people for a very long period of time.

During the time our friend's family was living and growing in Iran, Jews in Spain and Portugal were either hiding from the Inquisition or burning at the stake, being burned alive in their homes during various European pogroms, or beaten to death by mobs, often rushing  straight out of church after listening to the usual Easter sermons about how the "perfidious Jews" killed their so-called "god," hiding all over Europe from the Germans or sucking down Zyklon B in a German gas chamber.  The Religion of Peace and the people who were raised up in it were really working overtime.

What is really surprising to me in all this anti-Muslim bigotry is not so much the pure ignorance of it, but how people raised in the Christian faith and supposedly all its teachings are apparently oblivious to one of the few things in it that make any sense at all, the admonition that you are keen to point out the mote in the other's eye while ignoring the log in your own.  That a Christian can point an accusatory finger at ANY other religion has always amazed me.  The sheer fucking gall of it!


The truth about religion is that it is separatist by nature.

We can speculate in here about the various tenets of each religion, and sign on or off on how each single aspect or verse of each religion hits us in terms of truth, trust, validity.  But this is a discussion board designed for that very purpose.

But you won't get that on the street.

In today's American religions, especially the ones who stay on the front page, what you have are people who are not by their very nature rigid to the teeth, but because many of the teachings of each one demands that they "have no other God before me" they become rigid because they have been taught that. 

Religion is without, putting in.  I find that spiritually a contradiction.  In religion, it is from without that your decisions about what is significant to God are made.   In religion, you are rarely called upon to think.  Conversely, to illustate the opposite, the current rightwing fundamentalists spend a lot of time talking about the salient need for being obedient.  I would bet the rent that if you channel surfed on next Sunday, one of the coxcombed would be drastically intoning the despicable sin of being disobedient.  In psychology, it is called reinforcement.

It is the very nature of religions to find bugaboos to point to because then they can save you from the horrors of those who stray from their organized thought.    In codependency, it is called creating a crisis so you can solve it.



I honestly think that if the perfect scenario would work--open discussion, openness to new ideas, broad subject study--it would come from the dark side--the liberals.  The capacity to start a new religion--one of crystalized verity born of exchanged thought and a million offerings of opinion and tried and true existing universal elements of metaphysics--is perfect, time wise; the internet could provide the very forum necessary for developing one.

But it won't happen.  There won't be a newly created religion that will grow and spread.  This is because the rightwing element has already gained more than you might think they have.  As it stands now, they control the common room, implicitly, by their ready passion, their emotional smouldering, and above all, their license-to-kill confidence.  Rarely in any room is the noisy one not one of them.

Almost any approach to honest discussion about religion would have you seeing, surrounding you, a gathered crowd (who only came to debate) suddenly let their shoulders droop noticably at the first syllable of a truly open  discussion, knowing that the rightwing religions are all about to explode about it. 

We don't discuss religion with them because we know them by their manners--we know that they will sneer and shout us down.  We also know if we remain too long, deferring, suspicions about us and Satan will emerge.  In their own enclave, they see themselves as mirrors full of lambs, but to the rest of us who are exposed to their bristling disapproval, they are simply potentially dangerous because of their smite-happy tyranny.

Plane

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Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2007, 02:32:30 AM »
<<specifically what would you do to counter and respond to another 9/11?>>

I'd urge my political representatives to get all Americans out of Iraq in the next sixty days with or without their equipment, pay major war crimes reparations to the Iraqi people, adopt a fair and balanced policy towards the Israeli-Palestinian question and pull out support for dictatorships such as Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait unless they show real and immediate progress towards democracy.  I'd make sure that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Perle, Woflowicz, Feith, Powell and others went on trial before the International Court of Justice for war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture, plotting and waging a war of unprovoked aggression and generally show that when America preaches a world of obedience to law, it means a world of obedience to law.

And if I couldn't do all of those things, then I'd triple airport, border and harbour security, stay away from large crowds and public transportation and tell my kids to avoid the big cities.


I liked JS Jedhi powers better , more likely to be effective.