Author Topic: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...  (Read 4915 times)

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_JS

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 01:42:09 PM »
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War never is, Js.  And that, everyone does know.  and please try to remain honest by acknowledging that when we're talking about the areas of instability and insurgent/terrorist acts, we're actually only talking about a small area in all of Iraq, largely being the Suuni triangle.  The Kurdish north, and pretty much all of the Shiite south have been largely stable, with very infrequent attacks, and have supported by overwhelming majorities, our efforts to bring democracy to their once oppressed Dictator-run nation

To an extent, but this is something I see many Americans taking far too much credit for. The Kurds are more stable because of the Kurds, who established their own rule even while Saddam was still in power. The Shi'ites were primarily the same, though violence has persisted there to more of an extent. I would be wary of confusing stability with desiring foreign forces in their territory as some seem to claim (and note I am not saying that you claim this).

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Bush and his military folks failed to have several contingincy plans ready to impliment at a moment's notice, which includes the option of a significant increase in the amount of coalition forces, once it was determined how much greater the insurgency was determied to be.  Thus allowing those insurgent & terrorist acts to fester, and boil over once some of the mosques and and recruiting centers were hit

Why?

It is exceedingly odd that the military brass would not have varying scenarios planned in advance, moreover, we know that General Franks and others urged the administration for more ground troops before the invasion began. You give basic criticisms, and you are right, these are old hats. What I said is missing is analysis, not complaints, see the difference? I could care less whether it is left, right, or preferably non-political.

Why did they make these mistakes? Clearly the military had planned for some of these problems. What happened and why? That is my concern and whether it is a Republican, Democrat, or some Pentagon brass that someday explain what went wrong I really want to read more about that. There were some terrible choices made, even pre-invasion, that simply went against conventional wisdom.

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all that scares the living daylights out of Iran, Syria, and similar minded countries

I keep hearing this Sirs, but why?

I could see where the Sunni's losing power would really worry Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (and they have publicly stated that they are willing to send arms to defend their Sunni brethren), but why would a massive shi'a majority in control of massive amounts of oil as well as a friendly Kurdish regime be a problem of any kind to Iran. Thus far all indications are that Iran has wonderful relations with both the Prime Minister and President of Iraq. I have yet to see a reasoned explanation of why this bothers Iran? They appear to be the great winners in many ways.


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Michael Tee

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2007, 03:27:06 PM »
<<He has repeatedly stated that the war is in our national interest . . . >>

So what?  A lie repeated 100 times is still a lie.  If he didn't believe it the first time he said it, there's no reason why he would believe it the last time he said it.

<< . . .  and the majority of the senate and house agreed with him at the time. >>

Those gutless windbags?  Few if any of them had the guts to cross a "war-time President" - - which is why Howard Dean looked so good for a time.

<<Your claim he does not care is just empty rhetoric. >>

It's an accurate statement based on his actions of sending men to die for nothing and only subject to revision if he in fact believes that this is essential to U.S. interests.  But in that case, why lie about the motive?  Why not level with the people?  The odds that Bush truly believes this to be in the national interest are negligible.  I'd say maybe a 5% chance that he's sincere about the national interest (although lying about where that interest lies) in which case he'd probably care.  There's a 95% chance this cynical bastard knows God-damn well why the troops are in Iraq, whose benefit they are there for (not theirs, certainly!) and thus obviously doesn't give a shit if they live or die.

Obviously anyone who cares about the troops wants them outta there ASAP.

Amianthus

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2007, 03:32:03 PM »
Obviously anyone who cares about the troops wants them outta there ASAP.

Obviously, anyone who uses the "obviously" argument has no facts to present.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

domer

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2007, 03:38:50 PM »
Put it this way, Ami: anyone who puts a first priority on the safety of American troops in the Iraq belligerency much more likely than not supports withdrawal of those troops "as quickly as the situation allows." (I phrased the exit conditions that way to give you a little room to save face.)

BT

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2007, 03:45:58 PM »
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It's an accurate statement based on his actions of sending men to die for nothing and only subject to revision if he in fact believes that this is essential to U.S. interests.

And you haven't shown any contracdictory statements by him that would show his insincerety. And until you can you are just demonizing the man absent fact.


Amianthus

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2007, 03:56:01 PM »
Put it this way, Ami: anyone who puts a first priority on the safety of American troops in the Iraq belligerency much more likely than not supports withdrawal of those troops "as quickly as the situation allows." (I phrased the exit conditions that way to give you a little room to save face.)

I don't need to save face. I was all for pulling the troops out long ago. Voiced my opinion several times.

Doesn't change the fact that anyone who uses the "obviously" argument has no facts to present; if they did, they would present them instead of stating that it's "obvious."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2007, 04:33:11 PM »
The real point here is that Juniorbush and Cheney just don't care enough about the soldiers that have died and been crippled and driven mad by their misguided unnecessary ill-planned warmongering (let alone the millions of displaced, dead and maimed Iraqis) to bring them home and MAKE IT STOP.



First of all I don't agree with Sir's criticism of Lanyas headline composition , the tradition of headlines is to editorialise the content  to its ultimate breifness that one person may understand a main point of an essay to be diffrent than another or even the author is within this usual situation .

If a headline is pretty strong, that is nothing wrong with it as a headline.

It would be nice if headlines were always right , but if we were in agreement about what is right , what would we do with our time in a debateing club?


Secondly I disagree with Xavier_Onassis that a withdrawal of troops from Iraq would  "MAKE IT STOP" .

I see little reason to think that such an event would even make it slow down.

_JS

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2007, 05:07:04 PM »
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Doesn't change the fact that anyone who uses the "obviously" argument has no facts to present; if they did, they would present them instead of stating that it's "obvious."

Obviously Malta is more densely populated than Libya.

No, it seems to work just fine sometimes.

Obviously ;)
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2007, 05:30:45 PM »
Obviously Malta is more densely populated than Libya.

No, it seems to work just fine sometimes.

Obviously ;)

"Obviously, the speed of light is unchanging."

Nope, doesn't work all the time.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2007, 06:40:59 PM »
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War never is, Js.  And that, everyone does know.  and please try to remain honest by acknowledging that when we're talking about the areas of instability and insurgent/terrorist acts, we're actually only talking about a small area in all of Iraq, largely being the Suuni triangle.  The Kurdish north, and pretty much all of the Shiite south have been largely stable, with very infrequent attacks, and have supported by overwhelming majorities, our efforts to bring democracy to their once oppressed Dictator-run nation

To an extent, but this is something I see many Americans taking far too much credit for. The Kurds are more stable because of the Kurds, who established their own rule even while Saddam was still in power. The Shi'ites were primarily the same, though violence has persisted there to more of an extent. I would be wary of confusing stability with desiring foreign forces in their territory as some seem to claim (and note I am not saying that you claim this).

So A) you concede it's largely just a small segment of Iraq vs the continued implication it's a far ranging civil war, and B) you haven't denied that indeed these majorities are pleased we took out Saddam and support our effort to bring about Democracy.  Again, no one is advocating we stay there indefinately, the sooner we get out the better, which would likely be the same posotion of the majority of the Iraqi population, WHEN they're ready.  And only THEY will know when they're ready.


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Bush and his military folks failed to have several contingincy plans ready to impliment at a moment's notice, which includes the option of a significant increase in the amount of coalition forces, once it was determined how much greater the insurgency was determied to be.  Thus allowing those insurgent & terrorist acts to fester, and boil over once some of the mosques and and recruiting centers were hit

Why?

Why?  You asked where the "other side" was critical of the Post-Saddam military intervention.  You'd have to ask the military and Bush why they weren't better prepared.  Maybe Pooch, Bt, or Captstrickland if he takes a gander at this post.  I could only speculate.



You give basic criticisms, and you are right, these are old hats. What I said is missing is analysis, not complaints, see the difference? I could care less whether it is left, right, or preferably non-political.

Then again I reference my above response.  You need to ask for analysis of military intervention with someone who has experience in the area.  Maybe Ami.  But the point that you haven't seen criticism or negative commentary aimed at Bush's efforts post-Saddam from "all sides" hopefully have been put to rest


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all that scares the living daylights out of Iran, Syria, and similar minded countries

I keep hearing this Sirs, but why?

Because a stable democratically run country, in the heart of militant Islam will divert much of their (Radical militants) resources, personel, training, arms, and bodies, from perpetuating and planning more global acts of terrorism, not to mention having to find even more new areas to train and organize.  Both Iran & Syria will constantly have to look over their backs anytime they are desiring to launch terrorist sponsored attacks aimed at Israel, and Israeli friendly regimes.  this kinda falls along the common sense line Js, so why you're asking "why" is a little puzzling, when you yourself have acknolweded their efforts to destabilize the area, fund and arm terrorists, with the possible hope of filling in the void, if such a democracy is defeated.


Thus far all indications are that Iran has wonderful relations with both the Prime Minister and President of Iraq. I have yet to see a reasoned explanation of why this bothers Iran? They appear to be the great winners in many ways.

Asked and answered.  And let's hope they remain on "good relations"  Let's make it even better by supporting Iraq in any way we can, that Iraq requests
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2007, 08:35:39 PM »
<<And you haven't shown any contracdictory statements by him that would show his insincerety. And until you can you are just demonizing the man absent fact. >>

Contradictory statements by Bush would be nice.  Statements that try one's credibility are also nice.  This bs about the "threat" of Iraq and its non-existent WMD, this use of documents known to be fake in a State of the Union address, the early indications of a will to blame Iraq for 9-11, the preconceived PNAC plans to invade Iraq by the men closest to the "President" - - there's a veritable forest of circumstantial evidence that he lied in his reasons for invading Iraq.

I'm open-minded enough to admit the possibility that even lying about the ostensible reason for the invasion doesn't mean the "President" still can't believe it's in the national interest.  As I've said, his real motive could be oil, and he could believe that oil - - or control of the Mid-East oil fields - - IS in the national interest.  In which case, he'd commit the troops reluctantly but out of necessity and in that barely possible scenario, it could be that he really does care about them.  However, the fact that he lied about motive and continues to invent more preposterous lies about motive indicates to me that the real motive can't be sold to the American people, either because they are too dumb to get it (not very likely, because it's not all that complex) OR because it's too sordid for them to swallow.  In which case it couldn't possibly be in the national interest.  So the greater likelihood - - allowing for the possibility that you have it right - - is still that he's a corrupt, venal, self-aggrandizing guy who sacrifices the troops to achieve unsavoury goals that he can't bring himself to confess to the public.

The evidence for that is circumstantial, but IMHO it's a much stronger case than the circumstantial evidence that the guy is sincere and really cares about the loss of life.  Your problem, if I may say so, is that you prefer to rely exclusively on the type of evidence that exonerates your man and are unwilling to look at any other kind of evidence that condemns him, even when it dwarfs the meagre accumulation of your preferred kind of evidence.

Michael Tee

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2007, 09:06:26 PM »
<<"Obviously, the speed of light is unchanging."

<<Nope, doesn't work all the time.>>

---------------------------------

Obviously, I'm right and you're wrong.

Yep, 99% is good enough for me.

sirs

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2007, 09:15:25 PM »
<<He has repeatedly stated that the war is in our national interest . . . >>

So what?  A lie repeated 100 times is still a lie. 

Ooooooo, gotta love the irony in that one.  Bush lied us into war, It's all about the oil, Bush stole the election, yada, rant, blather.  Mr Kettle, meet Mr Pot


Obviously anyone who cares about the troops wants them outta there ASAP.

Simple then......DEFUND the war.  That is the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY & FUNTION congress had regarding warring.  Anything less demonstrates that they don't, IF the position is that "they care and want them outta there ASAP"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2007, 09:19:03 PM »
<<Simple then......DEFUND the war.  That is the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY & FUNTION congress had regarding warring.  Anything less demonstrates that they don't, IF the position is that "they care and want them outta there ASAP">>

I agree with that.  But they don't have the balls. 

BT

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Re: Let's take a look at some of these trendy thread titles...
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2007, 09:29:56 PM »
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But they don't have the balls.

Perhaps that is because they aren't sure deauthorizing and defunding is the right thing to do.

Or perhaps they think a move like that could come back to haunt them.

Lots to consider. Lot at stake.