DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on October 16, 2011, 03:38:18 PM
-
. . . and understands where the biggest danger (co-optation) to it lies!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/will-occupy-wall-streets-spark-reshape-our-politics/2011/10/10/gIQArPJjcL_story.html?wpisrc=emailtoafriend (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/will-occupy-wall-streets-spark-reshape-our-politics/2011/10/10/gIQArPJjcL_story.html?wpisrc=emailtoafriend)
- she gets the folly of taking these complaints to Washington, as if Washington people weren't the paid errand-boys of the Street
- she's hopeful (more hopeful than I, frankly) that the Democrats will sit up and listen (or, as she puts it, will go where the energy is)
- she senses the grass-roots power of the movement, in contrast with the Astroturf roots of the Tea Party
Good article all around, but IMHO, kind of naively hoping that the political system will respond via movement inside the "two-party" system, whereas I really think that's just not gonna happen. The only "movement" you'll see from that system is more "progressive talk" from Obama, similar to the last fine performance he gave just before the 2008 elections, followed by a second round of sell-outs once the "danger" of the elections is past.
Unfortunately I believe that the real proponents of change will have to act completely outside the "two-party" system and its phony quadrennial election charades, or be doomed to an endless circle of hope and betrayal. At some point, they HAVE to learn the lesson of "Fool me once . . . " or get fucked in the ass over and over again.
-
I prefer to follow people that have proven track records of success. I tend to not have much faith in tattooed, unclean, skin pierced people that don't have jobs and haven't accomplished anything to brag about in their short unproductive lives. People that have never created a job or probably never worked at one aren't the type of people I have respect for.
-
she senses the grass-roots power of the movement, in contrast with the Astroturf roots of the Tea Party
Could you please provide evidence that the tea party was astroturfed.
-
David Graeber: July 2nd. That was the first actual meeting. What happened was AdBusters put out this call for these protests. We had heard there was supposed to be a general assembly on July 2nd. So I just showed up. But it was a rally, not an assembly. Some Marxist groups had set up stages and megaphones and was making speeches and were planning a march. So we said we don’t need to do this.
-
she senses the grass-roots power of the movement, in contrast with the Astroturf roots of the Tea Party
Could you please provide evidence that the tea party was astroturfed.
Clinton was rumored to own an Chevy El Camino with AstroTurf in the back for hooking up with young sluts.
-
EK: We’re also beginning to see “Occupy Wall Street” link up with with more traditional activist groups. Some members of the protest were speaking via videofeed at today’s big confab of liberal groups in Washington. MoveOn.org and organized labor are planning a march in support of the occupiers for Wednesday. How does that change what is, for now, a very decentralized movement?
DG: It is organically happening but there are definite problems that occur. We found this back in the days of the globalization movement. Unions were very supportive and provided resources but they’re very different organizations. The real difficulty is how to work with people who are top-down and have a funding base, as it means there are things they can say in public and things they can’t, and groups where people can say whatever they want and the whole idea is to be decentralized. One problem I’ve already heard of is that people are coming in and changing the tenor of the general assemblies to speeches, and that’s not really what it’s supposed to be about. So you have to balance the aspect where you’re trying to show what direct democracy could be like and the effort to link up with groups that have a form of organization we’ve rejected.
-
<<I prefer to follow people that have proven track records of success.>>
From what I've seen, you actually tend to follow people who have a proven track record of failure and disaster. The Occupy! people are advocating a clean break with them, and all you can see is their tats and piercings, which most young people have today, their lack of jobs - - and whose fault is that, when both political parties and the banksters who pay them have colluded in trade policies that led to the export of millions of American jobs? - - and their so-called lack of accomplishment, which is really unfair when you consider that many of them have degrees (and tens of thousands of dollars of unpaid student loans) to match. Ridiculous all around. But as I say, I think you're afraid of them because they stand up and fight back while you bend over to take more from the folks that they're fighting, and what does that say about you.
PS: I've watched a lot of tapes and interviews and very few of these folks appear as "filthy" as you seem to think they are. Better re-examine your own prejudices and why they seem to be so violent and deep-rooted.
<< People that have never created a job or probably never worked at one aren't the type of people I have respect for.>>
And how many jobs have these Wall Street fraudsters created? How many folks did they rush to hire with their trillion-dollar bailout? EVERYBODY IN WASHINGTON presided over the biggest loss of jobs in US history.
Kramer you are wrong in just about everything you've said so far - - wake up and open your eyes!
-
<<Could you please provide evidence that the tea party was astroturfed.>>
I think I'll just take a leaf from your book and tell you to Google "Tea Party" and "Koch" together.
-
<<Clinton was rumored to own an Chevy El Camino with AstroTurf in the back for hooking up with young sluts.>>
Confirming my long-held belief that not more than 188% of all conservative hatred of Clinton boils down to pure sexual envy at a guy who has always been a natural babe magnet.
-
<<One problem I’ve already heard of is that people are coming in and changing the tenor of the general assemblies to speeches, and that’s not really what it’s supposed to be about. >>
God-damn right that's not what it's supposed to be about. I sense here one of the biggest dangers to the movement, organizational support and money. Fuck! Shit! This could be the kiss of death right here. They won't even need the National Guard. Without a single infiltrator.
I'm feeling now something I don't think I've felt since the Bay of Pigs. The Revolution in mortal danger, but STILL ABLE to pull out of it. This is crunch time, maybe the first of many, but we're going to see if the movement has one or even many Fidel Castros, or if it's just once again led by Jerry Rubins and Abby Hoffmans. Fuck this, but I have a bad feeling in my gut about this, for the first time, too.
-
<<Could you please provide evidence that the tea party was astroturfed.>>
I think I'll just take a leaf from your book and tell you to Google "Tea Party" and "Koch" together.
I did and came up with nothing definitive. They aren't as obvious in their funding of causes as say George Soros is.
-
<<I did and came up with nothing definitive. They aren't as obvious as . . . >>
Apparently that's because they try a lot harder than Soros does to cover their tracks. Here's just one article that connects the dots:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers)
. . . No, no, that's not necessary. Your satisfaction is reward enough for me.
-
Mikey,
Could you come up with a more objective source. Monbiot is tainted.
-
<<I prefer to follow people that have proven track records of success.>>
First Sarah Palin (who quit her job), then Donald Trump( who was never elected to anything), then Rick Perry(who is a bad duplicate of Juniorbush) and now Herman Cain(who got 26.2% of the vote when he ran for the Senate. Proven track records, hah!
-
<<I prefer to follow people that have proven track records of success.>>
First Sarah Palin (who quit her job), then Donald Trump( who was never elected to anything), then Rick Perry(who is a bad duplicate of Juniorbush) and now Herman Cain(who got 26.2% of the vote when he ran for the Senate. Proven track records, hah!
yup everyone one of them
-
- she senses the grass-roots power of the movement, in contrast with the Astroturf roots of the Tea Party
Those who live in glass houses , should not throw turf.
-
Tainted or not, I don't know that anyone has ever refuted anything he wrote about the Koch Bros.-Tea Party connection and no one tells the story better than he did.
As far as I'm concerned, Monbiot's story linking the TP to Koch, until refuted in its major particulars, is good enough for me.
-
<<Clinton was rumored to own an Chevy El Camino with AstroTurf in the back for hooking up with young sluts.>>
Confirming my long-held belief that not more than 188% of all conservative hatred of Clinton boils down to pure sexual envy at a guy who has always been a natural babe magnet.
except for the fact I wouldn't have known about it unless Clinton brought it up and of course you with the article. It's not a big deal to me and I don't know why the writer of the article thinks it's a big deal. Do you know why astroturf is a big deal to liberals?
-
<<I did and came up with nothing definitive. They aren't as obvious as . . . >>
Apparently that's because they try a lot harder than Soros does to cover their tracks. Here's just one article that connects the dots:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers)
. . . No, no, that's not necessary. Your satisfaction is reward enough for me.
That article is very considerately conneted to sorce material.
For instance...David Koch is deeply antagonistic to the Obama administration. He fought the health-care bill, and the financial-regulation measure that was passed last week (“Everyone I know in the financial world is terrified by the powers it gives the federal government”). He also opposes the president’s climate-change proposals. In his office, Koch showed me a photocopied flyer Greenpeace had produced with sketches of him and Charles below the words wanted for climate crimes and shook it in the air. Koch Industries’ emissions, Koch told me, are far less than legally required. “And yet they’re attacking us as environmental criminals,” he said. “Wanting to put me and Charles in jail.” Koch says he’s not sure if global warming is caused by human activities, and at any rate, he sees the heating up of the planet as good news. Lengthened growing seasons in the northern hemisphere, he says, will make up for any trauma caused by the slow migration of people away from disappearing coastlines. “The Earth will be able to support enormously more people because a far greater land area will be available to produce food,” he says.
Koch concedes that he sympathizes with the tea party. “It demonstrates a powerful visceral hostility in the body politic against the massive increase in government power, the massive efforts to socialize this country, which goes against the conservative grain of the average American,” he says. He insists he vigorously opposes the elements of the party “that go too far” and that he stands firmly against “violence” and other “bad things” perpetrated by tea-party members. “I’m not a racist. I’m very broad-minded,” he says.
Koch’s critics, however, say he’s being coy about his tea-party connections. “David Koch likes putting his name on all his things that aren’t evil,” says Lee Fang, a blogger for the liberal Thinkprogress.org. “He’ll put his name on his theater at Lincoln Center, but look at the Americans for Prosperity website and his name is virtually missing. All of his groups have used these same tea-party tactics before they actually had the tea-party brand.” Americans for Prosperity, AFPF’s political arm, has certainly not shied away from joining arms with the tea party. In April of last year, AFP took credit on its website for helping to organize Taxpayer Tea Party rallies in Sacramento, Austin, and Madison, and told visitors to “save the date” for National Tea Party Tax Day in Washington, which AFP would be hosting.
Koch’s detractors also like to point out the irony of the so-called grassroots tea-party movement’s being funded by a billionaire. Koch’s real motives, they say, are self-serving. In April, Fang posted a dossier on Koch that attributes to his groups a decades-long pattern of “Astroturfing”—funding movements designed to look grassroots, but which in fact represent corporate interests. Richard Fink insists that Koch’s political activity is about principles, not money. “I view David as a courageous American who has a set of beliefs that he’s willing to support consistently over time despite all the flak he gets,” Fink says. “Very few people would do that.”
http://nymag.com/news/features/67285/index4.html (http://nymag.com/news/features/67285/index4.html)
-
Interesting. So David Koch is a GOP supporter. I wonder if he will follow the Tea Party folks when they launch a third party.
-
Interesting. So David Koch is a GOP supporter. I wonder if he will follow the Tea Party folks when they launch a third party.
they claim Cain is their house boy.
-
I don't think that people are created by funding.
On the street the occupy Wall Street people are spending a little money donated by who? Does it matter?
Tea Party is people , the availibility of money is enableing but these people had parents just like trhe rest of us, they were not created by dragon teeth that the Koch brothers bought.
-
Both the Tea Party and The Owwies are ideas that happen to draw people to them.
If the ideas are sound the money that a Koch or a Soros donates helps spread them but it can't co-opt them.
-
Both the Tea Party and The Owwies are ideas that happen to draw people to them.
If the ideas are sound the money that a Koch or a Soros donates helps spread them but it can't co-opt them.
the people that went to the tea party we smart enough to do more than piss on the streets and look dumb. They had a plan, executed it, organized, showered, and got a shit load of people elected last Nov. This group can't do much, especially now that Obama has become their fearless leader.
-
Can't argue with how they shaped the GOP drubbing of the Dems during the last election cycle, and one of the biggest reasons that the Dems, even when they had their majorities, couldn't/wouldn't give Obama the kitchen sink as well, as in Obamination care, as folks like Tee would want
Too much of the country still embraces freedom, over the perception of cradle --> grave security, which masks the real intientions of focusing power with the Government and its Public Union Leadership $$$$ trough
-
<<Do you know why astroturf is a big deal to liberals?>>
Yeah, I think I do. It's a matter of authenticity. Grass-roots movements have authenticity because they're genuine people's movements, rather than movements of political partisans and activists; Astroturf, the opposite of grass-roots, denotes movements that CLAIM to be grassroots but are in fact the product of political partisans and activists, i.e., are not authentic or sincere.
-
Journolist 2.0: OccupyDC Emails Show MSM, Dylan Ratigan, Working With Protesters To Craft Message
-
<<Do you know why astroturf is a big deal to liberals?>>
Yeah, I think I do. It's a matter of authenticity. Grass-roots movements have authenticity because they're genuine people's movements, rather than movements of political partisans and activists; Astroturf, the opposite of grass-roots, denotes movements that CLAIM to be grassroots but are in fact the product of political partisans and activists, i.e., are not authentic or sincere.
You and XO should join them for a while or are you guys too good to hang out with scum like that?
-
I would have gladly joined them last time I was in NYC, but I'm not a citizen and if I come to the US to get involved in their politics they could refuse me admission next time I want to visit my grandchildren.
Bottom line is, they ask me each time I cross the border what's the purpose of my visit, and I tell 'em the truth, that it's to visit my grandchildren and my daughter. And that's ALL I do, believe me. I don't want to give them the smallest excuse to turn me back at the border. Those kids love to see me and I love to see them. I wouldn't want to jeopardize those visits for anything.
But I sure as hell wish them (Occupy Wall Street!) every success. Your country sucks. Occupy Wall Street! is the only hope it has to get better. You really should support them as much as you can.
-
You really should support them as much as you can
They need to work on their communication skills.
-
I think Occupy Ontario will need very warm clothes, if not igloos.
-
<< . . . they need to work on their communication skills.>>
So? Offer to help 'em with their communication skills.
-
<<I think Occupy Ontario will need very warm clothes, if not igloos.>>
Toronto winter weather is about the same as Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago. Maybe they could sell us some of their igloos.
-
<< . . . they need to work on their communication skills.>>
So? Offer to help 'em with their communication skills.
Then it would be my message and not theirs.
-
Their communication skills are pretty good, the message seems to be spreading.
At the same time, it is going to be bad for them if their new "supporters" begin making speeches and directing things.
-
Their communication skills are pretty good, the message seems to be spreading.
At the same time, it is going to be bad for them if their new "supporters" begin making speeches and directing things.
everything Obama touches turns to shit, so now that he's involved plan on it turning to shit. I give it about 2 weeks, or less.
-
“Demands are disempowering since they require someone else to respond,” said Gabriel Willow, a protester strolling past a sleeping-bag pod of young adults in the park last Monday. “It’s not like we couldn’t come up with any, but I don’t think people would vote for them.”
“If we don’t make demands, the political parties will make them for us,” a longtime protester, Eric Lerner, 64, said from his spot in the cluster last Monday. “We have to get it right this time.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/nyregion/occupy-wall-street-trying-to-settle-on-demands.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/nyregion/occupy-wall-street-trying-to-settle-on-demands.html?_r=1)
-
<<I think Occupy Ontario will need very warm clothes, if not igloos.>>
Toronto winter weather is about the same as Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago. Maybe they could sell us some of their igloos.
Brrrrrrr...
May I remind you that at my home we still talk of the freak snow of 73, eight inches with drifts up to two feet stayed on the ground almost three weeks.
This may not impress you but we don't see snow every year.
I wintered in Ohio once, Why any human being would volenteer to live north of that mystifys me.
Of course Global warming might move our Georgian climate up to Nova Scotia, that will be somthing, eh? A longer growing season in Canada and Siberia might allow so much corn and wheat to grow that humanity will double in numbers again before we run low.
Or the Luddites of Occupy Wall Street might shut down the economy, and with industrial production down , agricultral production down , employment up, perhaps there will be enough famine to trim the population of the nortern hemisphere, the lower consumption could halt global warming and the Climate of Canada would again be safe for polar bears.
-
I sincerely hope that the Dems will campaign on the tails of the OWS folk, analogus to how the GOP was shaped by the Tea Party folk. I really do
-
<<“Demands are disempowering since they require someone else to respond,” said Gabriel Willow, a protester strolling past a sleeping-bag pod of young adults in the park last Monday.>>
Not only do I find that to be very insightful, but I'm encouraged and delighted to see how the movement's foot soldiers can think outside of the box. If they don't become corrupted by their new-found friends, I think we could be witnessing the birth of a new kind of politics here.
The thing that you posted that I found the most discouraging to date was how the new supporters were making speeches, which seems to be dismantling the concept of the general assembly. The general assembly seems to come from the occupiers in Madrid and Athens, but I thought it went back further, to the Columbia Student strike and the occupation of Sproul Plaza at UCLA Berkley. In any event, fuck history. The general assembly's an illustration of a new kind of politics and so is this guy.
<< “It’s not like we couldn’t come up with any, but I don’t think people would vote for them.” >>
You probably liked to post that, because it "proves" the "anti-democratic" basis of the movement, but I think if you went deeper into WHY the people would not vote for them, it would ultimately come down to MSM and its role in spreading disinformation to cement the rule of the corporate state.
-
That'd be the same MSM that continues to prop them up, in as many FAVORABLE ways as possible, minus all out endorsement. But, hey, don't let me rain on your Kryptonite, Superman
-
You probably liked to post that, because it "proves" the "anti-democratic" basis of the movement, but I think if you went deeper into WHY the people would not vote for them, it would ultimately come down to MSM and its role in spreading disinformation to cement the rule of the corporate state.
I think he was referring to the occupiers and the general assembly.
I really haven't formed an opinion about the original occupiers. I have about the usurpers.
-
That'd be the same MSM that continues to prop them up, in as many FAVORABLE ways as possible,
SIRS....you've seen this correct?
http://bigjournalism.com/dloesch/2011/10/16/journolist-2-0-occupydc-emails-show-msm-dylan-ratigan-working-with-protesters-to-craft-message/ (http://bigjournalism.com/dloesch/2011/10/16/journolist-2-0-occupydc-emails-show-msm-dylan-ratigan-working-with-protesters-to-craft-message/)
-
<<I really haven't formed an opinion about the original occupiers. I have about the usurpers. >>
I'm very enthusiastic about the original occupiers and really negative on the usurpers. They're the kiss of death to the originality, the spark and ultimately the very validity of the Occupy! movement.
-
I sincerely hope that the Dems will campaign on the tails of the OWS folk,
analogus to how the GOP was shaped by the Tea Party folk. I really do
SIRS....I really do too!
This would make a great 2012 DNC Commerical
BRING IT ON!
LiveLeak.com - #Occupy Oakland Protesters Promote Comrade Obama's Communist, Socialist Ideals (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a15_1318890118)
-
That'd be the same MSM that continues to prop them up, in as many FAVORABLE ways as possible,
SIRS....you've seen this correct?
http://bigjournalism.com/dloesch/2011/10/16/journolist-2-0-occupydc-emails-show-msm-dylan-ratigan-working-with-protesters-to-craft-message/ (http://bigjournalism.com/dloesch/2011/10/16/journolist-2-0-occupydc-emails-show-msm-dylan-ratigan-working-with-protesters-to-craft-message/)
Indeed. The hogwash that the MSM is out to try and sabatoge the OWS is so beyond the realm of current reality. It'd be like.....claiming the south is still calk full of racists, and that racists make up the core of the GOP. All complete illusions, fabricated, I can only assume, to mask the void of truth and intentions, that come equipped with the hard core power liberal
-
<< The hogwash that the MSM is out to try and sabatoge the OWS is so beyond the realm of current reality. It'd be like.....claiming the south is still calk full of racists, and that racists make up the core of the GOP. All complete illusions, fabricated, I can only assume, to mask the void of truth and intentions, that come equipped with the hard core power liberal >>
The link to Journalism 2.0 that CU4 just posted seems to be dealing with co-optation or usurpation of the original Occupy! movement, one of the dangers that I was aware of from the beginning and would certainly, if that is what is being documented, spell the effective end of everything good and worthwhile in the movement.
I intend to look into the Journalism 2.0 e-mails to see what we can really learn from them, but right now I want to get into the Media Research Center/Business & Media Institute "study" of the purported "love affair" between the MSM and the Occupy Wall Street! movement.
-
Have at it Superman. I'm sure we can all count on you to conclude how red is really blue
-
<<Have at it Superman. I'm sure we can all count on you to conclude how red is really blue>>
Done, sirs. You can check it out in the same thread where you posted the original MRC report. My actual conclusion was: Red is red, blue is blue and shit is shit.
-
Naaaa.......same attempt at trying to claim red is blue AMBE. But your repetitive effort is duly noted