DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BSB on November 07, 2011, 02:03:21 AM
-
Ah huh, Blowhard, you're a better person are you? I'm a disgrace am I? I have no soul but you do? Your just plain superior are you? Hmmm, sure sounds like the kinds of things whites used to say in this country about blacks.
How about those two African Americans that were part of Bush's "dog and pony show"? I bet you're superior to them also because they didn't stick up for THEIR people but you stick up for YOURS? Of course THEIR people happen to be the American people but that's lost on a racist like you. You only see them vs us.
BTW, was Colin the dog, and Condi the pony?
BSB
-
I can't post in that other thread anymore, Blowhard, so respond here.
-
I'm still thinking about all of this.
I want America to pay for its past crimes or at the very least acknowledge them. You don't give a shit. According to you I'm stuck in the rut of the past and you're moving "forward" and embracing "life" in the present.
I think that in your total disinterest in justice, you are a moral defective. Period. I am right and you are wrong. Your failure is the failure of America - - a belief that life can be beautiful in a world without justice. Sorry but you are wrong. And even if you were "right," I wouldn't want to be "right" and I wouldn't want to be you. Something is seriously lacking in you. A thirst for justice and the ache that comes with its absence.
I'm sure I expressed myself in more colourful (read "offensive") language in my earlier post. BFD - - you goaded me into it and I responded in kind. Maybe I should have cooled the rhetoric. The basic gulf between us is as stated above and it's unbridgeable. I am someone who gives a shit and you are someone who doesn't.
-
Transfer your ire to countries of greater crime and accept the truth of Mao and Stalin, this will cure your depression over the demise of Communism.
The USA started out pretty good , especially in comparison with the other countries extant at that time.
By dint of severe internal struggle that never really ceases the USA is better in several respects than it was in the beginning.
In some other respects we have lost some virtues and still need some further improvements.
Our people are more involved in these struggles than ever, there is great reason to be hopefull.
It is Gods business to punish us when we need it Jerimia, and not your nor mine is it to postpone by a second his reconing.
But might he not continue to use us just a little longer?
-
Editor, move this over to the funny pages section.
When some asshole from another country tells me what I care about, and what I don't care about, without kowing me, or my life, or what I see everyday, from a hole in the ground, all I can do is laugh. I'd call it arrogance but that would be a compliment.
BSB
-
<<Transfer your ire to countries of greater crime and accept the truth of Mao and Stalin, this will cure your depression over the demise of Communism.>>
Do you honestly think that by pointing your finger at two other countries that the U.S. thereby becomes absolved of all its guilt and the murders of millions, the torture, the lies, the invasions, everything is just wiped off the slate? Even if Mao and Stalin really were guilty of all that bullshit Cold War propaganda that you've been brainwashed with since birth, how does pointing your finger at them absolve you of anything? You'd still be just as bad. It would be like Ted Bundy pointing at some bigger mass murderer than he as an excuse for his own crimes.
<<The USA started out pretty good , especially in comparison with the other countries extant at that time.>>
Holy shit plane, you're talking over 200 years ago, and even then you're glossing over the genocide of the Indians and the whole era of slavery. Who the fuck were you better than, even then? The British? The French? The Belgians? The Dutch? How are genocide and slavery "pretty good?" WHAT is so effing "good" about them?
<<By dint of severe internal struggle that never really ceases the USA is better in several respects than it was in the beginning.
<< In some other respects we have lost some virtues and still need some further improvements.>>
And where in all this chest-thumping and flag-waving do the deaths of 2 million Vietnamese fit in, or the hundreds of thousands of victims of the Central American Death Squads, or the overthrow of democratically elected governments in Guatemala, Iran and Chile, followed by the torture and muurder of hundreds of thousands? Is this what you mean by "we have lost some virtues" or "still need some further improvements?"
<< It is Gods business to punish us when we need it Jerimia, and not your nor mine is it to postpone by a second his reconing.>>
plane, let's figure this out for a minute - - its YOUR business to punish the Central Americans, the Chileans, the Guatemalans, the Vietnamese, the Panamanians, the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Afghans, etc., but it's GOD'S business to punish the Americans? How you figure that?
<<But might he not continue to use us just a little longer?>>
Yeah, but first, He's gotta make you bankrupt.
-
<<When some asshole from another country tells me what I care about, and what I don't care about, without kowing me, or my life, or what I see everyday, from a hole in the ground, all I can do is laugh. I'd call it arrogance but that would be a compliment.>>
You made your best case in the WOOOOOOOSH! post. At this point, you're just starting to embarrass yourself. And bore me.
-
plane, let's figure this out for a minute - - its YOUR business to punish the Central Americans, the Chileans, the Guatemalans, the Vietnamese, the Panamanians, the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Afghans, etc., but it's GOD'S business to punish the Americans? How you figure that?
======================================
A good point, and rather hard to refute.
Do we need a Jeremiah?
Actually, I am sure we have rather a lot of them who sit alone in their grandmother's basements, typing away about the Book of Revelations and UFOs, the danger of stray asteroids and coming destruction. The actual Jeremiah, by the way, was effective only if we believe that the retribution of the Babylonians came centuries after ol' Jerry was deceased. We must take into account that those who chronicled the rantings of Jeremiah saw him in a favorable light. The real Jeremiah was most likely an even more grotesque nutcase than as he was described.
As I said, we surely have many a Jeremiah ranting away. Do any of them make a difference? Would a modern Jeremiah appear in a Teabagger rally, dressed in a tricorn hat and a Do Not Tread on Me flag, would he be camped out occupying Wall Street, would he be plodding about Manhattan with a sandwich board telling us to repent and prepare to meet our maker, or all of these?
-
Editor, my mistake, send it over to obituaries.
BSB
-
<<Transfer your ire to countries of greater crime and accept the truth of Mao and Stalin, this will cure your depression over the demise of Communism.>>
Do you honestly think that by pointing your finger at two other countries that the U.S. thereby becomes absolved of all its guilt and the murders of millions, the torture, the lies, the invasions, everything is just wiped off the slate? Even if Mao and Stalin really were guilty of all that bullshit Cold War propaganda that you've been brainwashed with since birth, how does pointing your finger at them absolve you of anything? You'd still be just as bad. It would be like Ted Bundy pointing at some bigger mass murderer than he as an excuse for his own crimes.
How apt! Yes it is something like comparing Theodore Bundy to Adolph Hitler.
<<The USA started out pretty good , especially in comparison with the other countries extant at that time.>>
Holy shit plane, you're talking over 200 years ago, and even then you're glossing over the genocide of the Indians and the whole era of slavery. Who the fuck were you better than, even then? The British? The French? The Belgians? The Dutch? How are genocide and slavery "pretty good?" WHAT is so effing "good" about them?
The Belgians, origionally everyone was better than the Belgians,we have always been better than the Belgins untill quite recently when they discovered that they do not really need a government , now sans government they are setting a really good example.The British ask an Indian or a Kenyan.The French, we have a deal with the French , once or twice a century we rescue each other, the French rescued us first so I can't criticise that French government , of course that French government fell to a revolution so we had to rescue other French governments.....
<<By dint of severe internal struggle that never really ceases the USA is better in several respects than it was in the beginning.
<< In some other respects we have lost some virtues and still need some further improvements.>>
And where in all this chest-thumping and flag-waving do the deaths of 2 million Vietnamese fit in, or the hundreds of thousands of victims of the Central American Death Squads, or the overthrow of democratically elected governments in Guatemala, Iran and Chile, followed by the torture and muurder of hundreds of thousands? Is this what you mean by "we have lost some virtues" or "still need some further improvements?"
Why do you not shed a tear for the entire four million Vietnameese who died in the War? Unkle Ho was a very abuseive substitute parent. I wish our rescue had actually worked.
<< It is Gods business to punish us when we need it Jerimia, and not your nor mine is it to postpone by a second his reconing.>>
plane, let's figure this out for a minute - - its YOUR business to punish the Central Americans, the Chileans, the Guatemalans, the Vietnamese, the Panamanians, the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Afghans, etc., but it's GOD'S business to punish the Americans? How you figure that?
<<But might he not continue to use us just a little longer?>>
Yeah, but first, He's gotta make you bankrupt.
Maybe so, but the dependant part of the world better hope that this does not need to happen.
-
plane, I'm not going to refute your last post point by point because it would just be going over points that have been made many times before, chiefly related to your absurd reliance on Cold War propaganda which is both outlandish and ridiculous. Or in your view, the Gospel truth. At this point it doesn't matter because I can see quite clearly that neither one of us will ever convince the other.
However, once again, I read your post as a blatant and shameless attempt to avoid any and all responsibility for your own actions (or more accurately, for your country's actions) by pointing fingers in every direction but your own. Which is totally pathetic and self-deceiving.
The Belgians, the British, the French, Evil Uncle Ho, Kenya, India on and on forever in a senseless multi-pointed distraction from the only country that you have any responsibility for and whose conduct you could influence even as a tiny part of a practically voiceless citizenry. I can't get over how your wiggle reflex keeps you forever spinning out of any genuine attempt to deal with (other than by whitewashing and minimizing) the gigantic scale of America's crimes and atrocities.
-
You doubt that Belgum ran some of the most indecent colonies?
Or that the USA was improved by acheiveing independance form England?
France has been pretty good since the time that they chased my ancestors out of Europe. No recent complaints.
You posted the list, I ansered much more exaustively than I usually do.
And yes Unkle Ho thought nationalism was better then the lives of the people in the nation, if that isn't evil what is?
-
<<You doubt that Belgum . . .
<< . . . [American] independance form England . . .
<<France has been pretty good . . .
<< . . . Unkle Ho thought . . .evil . . . >>
Really I don't know how to continue this discussion, plane. I'm talking to you, but you are not talking to me. Are you even aware that I have been complaining for several posts now of your reflex attempts to sidetrack and divert this discussion from any sensible consideration of what it is that America has been doing in the world during our respective lifetimes?
-
Well yes .
America has been fighting the evil part of the world since day one.
Wasn't I making this clear?
Next time you don't want a list, don't include a list in your question.
Lets just narrow it a bit .
The Belgians ,worst ever, untill they finally left the Congo.
The Natzis , best enemy we ever made.
There, just two .
-
<<America has been fighting the evil part of the world since day one.>>
Oh, rubbish.
<<Wasn't I making this clear?>>
What you were making clear was that you were prepared to focus on what YOU called the "evil" on the part of every nation on the face of the earth EXCEPT the U.S.A.
<<Next time you don't want a list, don't include a list in your question.>>
plane, the "list" was my mistake. After complaining about your inability to deal squarely with the many crimes against humanity committed by the U.S.A., I then very stupidly in response to your claim that the US in the beginning was a better country than most or many, asked you WHICH countries you thought the US was better than in the beginning, and asked you specifically about countries which I KNEW were better than the USA in the beginning. Which only gave you further opportunity to take up the challenge and create further diversions of the discussion away from all of the many crimes and atrocities of the US. My mistake.
<<Lets just narrow it a bit .>>
Let's just forget that I ever asked such a stupid fucking question and get back to my complaint that rather than focus on ANYTHING that the US did to inflict death, pain and heartbreak on its long-suffering fellow inhabitants of the world, you seem to prefer focusing instead on the wrongs and crimes of every other fucking country on this planet. WHY, when the question of US criminal conduct comes up, do you always divert the subject to a different issue, namely the crimes of every nation EXCEPT the USA?
-
The USA is not perfect, if your standard is absolute perfection then I must admit to falling far short.
If in comparison to other nations there is plenty of comparison to make.
Why do your comparisons to the ideal ignore all the rest of the world?
Where is the validity of consentrating your complaints on the best of a largly bad bunch?
Belgum was better than the US ? Post 1970 or so I might see an argument, but for most of our History Belgum was the worst colonist.
-
<<The USA is not perfect, if your standard is absolute perfection then I must admit to falling far short.>>
This is EXACTLY what I mean by your inability to face the issue squarely, your constant diversions. WHEN was the the issue ever about "perfection?" It's absurd to even suggest that my accusations against the USA were that it fell far short of perfection.
We are talking about the genocide of the Native Americans, the enslavement of the blacks, 100 years of segregation and lynch law, the overthrow of democratically elected governments, the support of Death Squads on Central America, the launching of wars of unprovoked aggression against Third World countries now to numerous to even count, the deaths of 2 million Vietnamese in a totally unjustifiable invasion, torture that goes unpunished . . .
Horrific abuses that you sweep away with snide comments like "nobody's perfect." I suggest to you that very FEW countries have a record anywhere near as horrific. Belgians over the span of your own history and despite what they did in the Congo, are SAINTS compared to Americans.
-
Back to the Native Americans are we? Should the world take a couple of years off to prosecute and punish America, Blowhard?
BSB
-
Canadians handled the issues of slavery and Native Americans far more humanely. Of course, this might have been due to the fact that cotton, tobacco, indigo and hemp don't grow well in the Great White North, and there were insufficient numbers of Canadians to cause them to want to push the Indians aside.
I rented a film, "Gunless" recently that was a rather polite Canadian Western, a comedy. Not great, but funny.
-
Canadians handled the issues of slavery and Native Americans far more humanely. Of course, this might have been due to the fact that cotton, tobacco, indigo and hemp don't grow well in the Great White North, and there were insufficient numbers of Canadians to cause them to want to push the Indians aside.
I rented a film, "Gunless" recently that was a rather polite Canadian Western, a comedy. Not great, but funny.
That is a good observation.
Is geography destiny?
Probly not , but geography is very influential on destiny.
So does virtue you can't avoid count the same as virtue you have to struggle for?
-
<<Back to the Native Americans are we? Should the world take a couple of years off to prosecute and punish America, Blowhard?>>
If you'd have followed this thread a little more attentively, BSB, you'd have known that it was plane and not I who raised the issue of America's status starting from the birth of the nation. plane was the one who claimed that America had "started out pretty good" and further went on to state that it had been better than most other countries when it started.
The genocide of the Native Americans and the enslavement of the blacks were two of many topics that I raised to refute plane's point, and since he had ratcheted the time-frame back to the late 18th century, that's where my examples had to start from.
-
<<Back to the Native Americans are we? Should the world take a couple of years off to prosecute and punish America, Blowhard?>>
If you'd have followed this thread a little more attentively, BSB, you'd have known that it was plane and not I who raised the issue of America's status starting from the birth of the nation. plane was the one who claimed that America had "started out pretty good" and further went on to state that it had been better than most other countries when it started.
The genocide of the Native Americans and the enslavement of the blacks were two of many topics that I raised to refute plane's point, and since he had ratcheted the time-frame back to the late 18th century, that's where my examples had to start from.
The hard times for the American native populations did not start with the birth of the USA, they had some pretty tough wars with the Spanish , French and English, Wars that featured enslavement , germ warfare, occasional massicres and bounty payments for scalps.
I don't think that the early USA was a great transition from the late colonial administration from this particular standpoint.