BT , I`ll understand if you suspend me for this.TWO DEAD COPS!! the fuck !!!!!

[sirs]

Yea, and if the fella decides to ignore the officer's instructions, or worse tries to kill them, the officer should just say please....and pray apparently.     

[Xavier_Onassis]

It would have been a wiser choice, since no one would have been killed over a petty think like selling single cigarettes.

[sirs]

Your abilities to read minds and devine the future are no better than your meritless accusations, I'm afraid.   Not to mention no law enforcement agency on the globe has as a policy to just keep asking please, and hope there's compliance .... or......  just keep asking please.     

[Plane]

The bottom line, is that there were ways to arrest this guy without killing him.....

Oh?

What do you have in mind?

I can imagine something , but I want to hear your idea first.

[Xavier_Onassis]

There is pepper spray, or course. There is also just writing him a ticket, as one would for a traffic offense. Selling single cigarettes is hardly the sort of thing anyone should be hauled off to jail for.

[sirs]

When a person is breaking the law, law enforcement is specific in stopping an ongoing crime.  A ticket doesn't stop this specific crime.  Your apparent issue is with the legislature that made this a crime.  So, what party controls the N.Y. legislature again?

[Plane]

There is pepper spray, or course. There is also just writing him a ticket, as one would for a traffic offense. Selling single cigarettes is hardly the sort of thing anyone should be hauled off to jail for.

  I agree with the giving of a citation, in a courtroom would have been a better venue for his protesting speech.

   But this was after being arrested nine times on this particular offense, at some point he was going to be taken in.

     If the officers had known he was prone to respiratory failure they might have refrained from piling onto him , but pepper spray in the nose might have been equally bad for causing a dangerous asthma attack.

     Tazer might have caused the same problem, not by irritating his respiratory system , but by confusing his circulatory system.

    As far as I know there isn't presently a police technique for arrest that is so stress free that it will never cause fatality in the frail.

     I recall an old lady that was tackled by a New Orleans policeman because he didn't want her to have a pistol, her resistance was trivial but she was hospitalized .

      What I have in mind is reducing the number of total times that the police arrest people.

       The responsibility rests in the legislative bodies , things that are not dangerous for the public that members of the public do  , should not be so illegal that they require dangerous means of arrest.

       The State legislature of NY should hang their heads in shame and rescind the high tobacco tax.

       Then every other law that is just not worth the risk and expense of arrest should be revisited and reduced in priority until the priority to arrest is appropriate to the risk to the public .

        The idea being that only activities that  are likely to injure the public should be worthy of the risk of harm that arrest represents.

      If arrests for insignificant offenses are eliminated , there will be less wasted effort for the police and less risk for the public getting arrested , and less risk for the police as well.

    This doesn't fix the problem that Michael Brown had , but it might reduce the kind of problem that Eric Garner had.

  I have more , but this is a long post already.

[Plane]

     I think that every method that exists for apprehending someone that we presently have will have some rate of fatality and  some rate of serious injury.

      I have imagined a means of arrest that do not presently exist , and I have several versions. Join in and brainstorm.

     1) Virtual arrest. Some people live off the grid , but this is a shrinking minority, if someone is committing an offence that is not immediately harmful, but it is possible to positively identify him , his dependence on society can be exploited to arrest him. An arresting officer could make him aware of his citation with verbal notice on tape or with a written ticket and carbon so that his accounts for power , credit , communication etc. can be attached unless he keeps an appointment with a bailiff.  This won't work on the homeless, lets hope this is a small drawback.

    2) Envelopment. Dropping a big net on someone  isn't stress free, but it is pretty gentle and technology to make big nets work exists already. Nets are topology dependent and will work a lot better on someone standing next to a mailbox than someone running between trees. Nets can be projected with mortars and therefore are able to entangle large numbers of people. Nets are not always going to work but they have potential to fix a portion of the problem.

    3)Goo. There are already several versions of sticky foam that can be sprayed on a person which harden and immobilize a person trapped in a cocoon that grows and hardens freezing his joints, or fastening him to objects or the ground. This method bears a risk of asphyxia if the goo hits the face.

    4) Drugs. Capture guns have been used on lions and rinos and bears for years , firing a drugged dart it can cause sleep or paralysis in short order. Unfortunately though the fatality rate is pretty low , it is not zero. Like a Tazer it could be useful to have one in  quiver of choices  but it requires an expert to be safe. An overdose can be fatal a shot to then eye or throat can be fatal, a proper dose properly placed can be fatal if the person shot falls into something hard sharp or suffocating.

   5) Drugs again, sleeping gas is a movie staple , but it would not work at all in the wind or rain, and when the Russians tried it in an enclosed and ideal circumstance it had a high rate of overdose. There are not any such drugs that cause zero allergic reaction and the dosage is uncontrolled when delivered through the air.

     I have one more idea that is worthy of a post of its own,  has anyone heard of a very gentle method of arrest that I have not hit here?

[Plane]

   This is my furthest out idea, so I separated it from the rest. 

        A cadre of anti-police.

        It has already been pointed out that co-operative arrestees are less prone to be injured, I am attempting to come up with a notion for a system of arrest that maximizes this effect.

          There is already such a thing as a public defender, a civil servant whose job it is to be the advocate of accused against the attorneys that the government has hired to convict .

         What if there were such a thing on the scene of an arrest?

         This would have to be a person in good standing with the public , trained in law and negotiation at least as well as a policeman , but empowered to resist the arrest on behalf of the potential arrestee , first by asking "is this arrest really necessary?" ,then to witness the arrest as an advocate of the arrestee.

         If this anti-policeman can be persuasive enough that the arrest will feature no abuses, and this becomes a well known feature of the system unresisting arrests will become more the rule.
       If abuses happen in spite of the influence of the anti-policeman , the anti-policeman will have a function in the court room to mitigate the plight of the arrested with his testimony and to cause the poorly performing policeman to answer up to a credible accuser in turn.

        I don't think this idea would be simple or cheap to implement , getting an advocate for the accused onto the scene of the arrest very promptly would be difficult and expensive.

      And imperfect, already we know that sometimes when an arrest is surrounded with witnesses and cameras and microphones it can still go very badly.   

       But a start on this is already in the training that the police get, we call it negotiation, I am mostly proposing that negotiation be partly done by specialists who consider a low number of arrests , a low number of convictions, as a successful outcome.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Now I am somehow responsible for the NY State legislature in the warped, dysfunctional mind of sirs.

sirs likes the idea of "comply or die", apparently.

I do not.

[sirs]

And again Dr Deflection pulls out the idiotic literal card.  No Dr Deflection, my point had nothing to do with your omnipotent ability to shape a legislature, however you wish.  The point has to do that your complaints wrongly aimed at officers enforcing the law should be at the legislature that passed the law, that officers are sworn to enforce

Not to mention there's no such thing as comply or die, so there's nothing for me to like in that deflection effort.  If anything its comply with law enforcement instructions, or else be arrested.  And if one resists arrest, then accidents can and do occur

[Christians4LessGvt]

Hundreds of cops turned their backs to
Mayor de Blasio at Rafael Ramos's funeral today!




http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officers-turn-back-de-blasio-cops-funeral/story?id=27851746

[Plane]

  Legislators and executives have a greater influence on the law and how it gets enforced than the Police do.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The cops appear to be both sheep and assholes.

[Christians4LessGvt]