DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on October 30, 2007, 09:47:58 AM
-
* "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
* "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
* "A man is but the product of his thoughts. What he thinks, he becomes."
* "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
* "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever."
Quotes about Christianity:
* "The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people."
* "Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded an empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."
* "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
* "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
* "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
-
* "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
Good quotes.
-
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
I have heard the same thing said about Communism.
I think that if Gandhi had been born at an earlier time, he would have likely become a religious figure, like Jesus or Buddha.
The media tells us TOO MUCH about public figures for people to deify them. There was a time when people thought about common people as being a different species from kings, prophets and leaders. Nowadays we know all about them, how they met their wives, whether they wear briefs or boxers, how cats make them sneeze, and they are never thought of as people once did kings, queens, prophets, and such.
-
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
I have heard the same thing said about Communism.
I think that if Gandhi had been born at an earlier time, he would have likely become a religious figure, like Jesus or Buddha.
The media tells us TOO MUCH about public figures for people to deify them. There was a time when people thought about common people as being a different species from kings, prophets and leaders. Nowadays we know all about them, how they met their wives, whether they wear briefs or boxers, how cats make them sneeze, and they are never thought of as people once did kings, queens, prophets, and such.
I thought he was called "Mahatma" (great soul) in a sort of high admiration.
In his Autobiography he confessesto several serious (in his estimtion ) sins , I don't think he wanted to be worshiped , I like that about him too.
-
I thought he was called "Mahatma" (great soul) in a sort of high admiration.
In his Autobiography he confessesto several serious (in his estimtion ) sins , I don't think he wanted to be worshiped , I like that about him too.
=====================================================
This is true. Gandhi was greatly admired, but he wasn't worshipped.
It is not clear that Jesus or Buddha or the Dalai Lama have ever expected to be worshipped, either.
Sun Myung Moon and Elijah Muhammad certainly didn't object to being deified, however. I think they rather liked the idea.
My point is that in ancient times, people were not expected to write autobiographies.
Jesus never wrote a word that we know of. He came from a tradition in which the Holy Word was a written word, and he purported to be a holy man. But regardless of this, he didn't write diddly-squat.
What was written about him, (by Matthew and John, who we think were disciples, and Luke and Mark, who had Roman names and about whom nothing is really known) is brief and the several tales contradict one another.
Within several decades of Jesus' crucifixion, a political leader of the Jews DID appear, and DID drive out the Romans. But then the Romans really got pissed and came back and drove most of the Jews out of Palestine or killed them.Not one word of this appears in the New Testament, even though it happened between the time of the death of Jesus and the time in which most of the New Testament was written.
One of history's major omissions, really. As an accurate history of the Jews and their doings, the Bible sucks.
There should have been a Book of Jesus. Being perfect and all, (assuming that any member of a Holy Trinity born without sin would be perfect), he could have gotten it right.
What we know about Gandhi and his life is vastly more than we shall ever know about Jesus.
-
* "Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded an empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."
Apparently Gandi liked Christ better than you do.
Jesus had writers with him , why wold he need to write?
Buddah did not write anything either , this seems like a very minor thing .
-
* "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
* "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
* "A man is but the product of his thoughts. What he thinks, he becomes."
* "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
* "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever."
Quotes about Christianity:
* "The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people."
* "Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded an empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."
* "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
* "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
* "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."
Fantastic. Thanks
-
Apparently Gandi liked Christ better than you do.
Jesus had writers with him , why wold he need to write?
Buddah did not write anything either , this seems like a very minor thing .
=================================================
Jesus did NOT have "writers with him". Matthew, John and Peter were not writers. Besides, their accounts are sketchy and glaringly incomplete. They contradict each other, they cover a paltry year or less of Jesus' life. They mention no dates at all.
The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which occurred between the death of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels is not even mentioned once. How could that be irrelevant? I mean really.
Buddha came from a place and a culture where writing was not a tradition.
Writing the Word of God was, on the other hand, a tradition among Jesus for centuries before Christ.
Jesus would need to write because:
(1) He was presumably perfect. The apostles were far from perfect.
(2) Jesus was attempting to explain a rather complicated system of beliefs to a large and perhaps diverse population. Agfter 200 years, a majority of the hman race has nor even read it, let alone believe in it
(3) Jesus, as 1/3 of an Omniscient Being, knew what would happen, so he knew the Apostles would do a crappy job and would be ineffectual. What better reason to do it yourself?
-
I disagree.
You mention Elijah Muhammed. The Rastafarians believe that Emperor Haile Salassie of Ethiopia was the living God incarnate. This was despite the fact that Selassie was Ethiopian Orthodox and head of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church through his title (technically his title was King of Kings, Lord of Lords and Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah - which goes back to Ethiopian claims of possessing the ark of the covenant and Sheba bearing Solomon's child).
Yahweh ben Yahweh (Hulon Mitchell Jr.) created the Nation of Yahweh and his followers considered him a deity.
Mitsuo Matayoshi has set up the World Economic Community Party - he claims that when he becomes PM of Japan he will begin the Last Judgement. Although, I wonder about him...LOL. His campaigns typically involve trying to convince his opponents to commit hara-kiri. ;)
There are a number of bodhisattva claimants in Buddhism, which is in a way better than being a god in Busddhist thought.
-
* "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
* "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever."
* "A man is but the product of his thoughts. What he thinks, he becomes."
These are my favorite. I actually consider them words to live by.
I only wish the Islamic fundies who wish for death in exchange for 70 + virgins, would live by such words. They only want violence and destruction of others as they live by the "word" that takes them into tall buildings with a single bound. They don't give a damn about today, let alone tomorrow. ...Haven't learned a thing about humanity, but are learning more and more about hatred and violence...Brainwashed by ignorance has made them what they are today.....hard to catch. They have "become" cockroach little devils.
-
I only wish the Islamic fundies who wish for death in exchange for 70 + virgins, would live by such words. They only want violence and destruction of others as they live by the "word" that takes them into tall buildings with a single bound. They don't give a damn about today, let alone tomorrow. ...Haven't learned a thing about humanity, but are learning more and more about hatred and violence...Brainwashed by ignorance has made them what they are today.....hard to catch. They have "become" cockroach little devils.
You do realize that not all Islamic militants believe in that?
-
The terrorists who flew into buildings in September 2001 adopted such beliefs and thoughts, JS.
Never said that all Islamic fundamentalists believe in all of what I posted...but darn near, I bet. . .darn near.
Of course there are variations on the theme of "Fundamentalism" not excluding fundamental "Christians"; but unlike Rosie O'Donnell, I don't happen to compare the Christian fundie to the Islamic terrorist. "Extreme" is a matter of semantics.
To compare one extremist to another is TOO easy to do these days, I agree, JS.
I'm not going to put all fundies in the mid east in one pot.
-
"The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which occurred between the death of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels is not even mentioned once. How could that be irrelevant? I mean really."
This is very specificly mentioned by Jesus, but what tells you that the writing was done after the sack of Jeruslem?
-
"The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which occurred between the death of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels is not even mentioned once. How could that be irrelevant? I mean really."
This is very specificly mentioned by Jesus, but what tells you that the writing was done after the sack of Jeruslem?
=====================================================
No, it wasn't mentioned by Jesus. The Temple and Jerusalem were all intact when Jesus was crucified. He sorta kinda may have predicted this was to occur at some indeterminate date.
Pretty much all Biblical scholars agree that the Gospels were written after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. It wasn't sacked, it was obliterated.
For the Jews, this was a far more important event at the time than pretty much anything that happened in that period, including Jesus and his rather short preaching period.
It was Paul that made Jesus famous.
-
"For the Jews, this was a far more important event at the time than pretty much anything that happened in that period, including Jesus and his rather short preaching period."
I prefer to interpret the "period" as a teaching period. Preaching connotes modern day "preaching". But, of course you probably did not mean it that way, eh?
Paul made Jesus famous?
uhh...ok...if you say so.
What's your definition of "famous"? I have a feeling I know what you will say. But it's worth the wait.
Jesus brought forth the true "word of God". But, I guess you could say that God became a lot more "famous". ha!
Jesus proclaimed to be the son of God. He helped bring enlightenment of God's word to the forefront and thus made the "word" a living breathing thing. Famous? Sure, God's word in the hearts and minds of his followers is something only a "believer" can appreciate.
So, famous? YEs famous for the teachings of God's word.
Ghandi and Martin Luther King were both great men. Teachers in the grand scheme of things, as well. I wouldn't consider them famous. Such a limited view of the depth of who they were and are in our hearts, to this day.
-
"The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which occurred between the death of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels is not even mentioned once. How could that be irrelevant? I mean really."
This is very specificly mentioned by Jesus, but what tells you that the writing was done after the sack of Jeruslem?
=====================================================
No, it wasn't mentioned by Jesus. The Temple and Jerusalem were all intact when Jesus was crucified. He sorta kinda may have predicted this was to occur at some indeterminate date.
Pretty much all Biblical scholars agree that the Gospels were written after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. It wasn't sacked, it was obliterated.
For the Jews, this was a far more important event at the time than pretty much anything that happened in that period, including Jesus and his rather short preaching period.
It was Paul that made Jesus famous.
It was specificly mentioned by Jesus , and he said it would be total , and as you mention, it was.
http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B41C013.htm
Mark
13:1 And as he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples saith to him, Master, see what manner of stones, and what buildings are here!
13:2 Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone on another, which will not be thrown down."
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Luke+21:5-19
Luke 21:5-19
The Destruction of the Temple Foretold5 When some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts dedicated to God, he said, 6?As for these things that you see, the days will come when not one stone will be left upon another; all will be thrown down.?
-
13:1 And as he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples saith to him, Master, see what manner of stones, and what buildings are here!
13:2 Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone on another, which will not be thrown down."
=======================================================
Have you seen the photos of the Western Wall?
There are MANY, MANY stones on top of another. The Romans did not knock down the Western Wall. It is STILL STANDING.
Not what any sane person could call a decent prediction. Certainly not apt for anyone presumed to be perfect.
I suggest that this was written by "Mark"(whoever he might have been) , AFTER the destruction of the Temple, by some guy whu had heard the news, but never been there.
-
13:1 And as he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples saith to him, Master, see what manner of stones, and what buildings are here!
13:2 Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone on another, which will not be thrown down."
=======================================================
Have you seen the photos of the Western Wall?
There are MANY, MANY stones on top of another. The Romans did not knock down the Western Wall. It is STILL STANDING.
Not what any sane person could call a decent prediction. Certainly not apt for anyone presumed to be perfect.
I suggest that this was written by "Mark"(whoever he might have been) , AFTER the destruction of the Temple, by some guy whu had heard the news, but never been there.
The western wall is a retaining wall , the entire temple sat above it.
When his deciples said "Look at all of these beautifull buildings" they might have been standing on the fill that the western wall was ment to hold.
If you want to quibble further there are other buildings in Jeruslem that date from earlyer than this statement , but the buildings referenced by the Question Jesus was asked are just as Jesus decribed , demolished utterly.
-
Typical Biblical "scholarship".
We aren't wrong, you just need to understand that the Western Wall of the Temple was not actually a wall of the Temple.
Bah!
Fundamentalist, indeed.
Sure, the evil Romans were just tools of God to punish the Jews for not following Jesus. Shuuuuuuure.
It ever so easier to make predictions after the event has occurred.
-
What? I have to explain what "famous" means? It means that which has attained fame.
Lookit, famous means "well-known". Jesus, ML King and Gandhi are all famous. They are all well-known. You can't deny that.
We know much less about Jesus than we do about the other twoi, because Jesus did not want us to know what he had been up to between the age of 12 and 32. Had he wished this to have been known, he would have revealed it. All we know is a bunch of often conflicting tales told by people who may or may not have actually known him. Jesus COULD have written down what is message was, but he chose to let the job be done by amateurs, long after his death.
How about this:
More people have heard about Coca-Cola than Jesus.
Millions, perhaps billions of people in Asia and perhaps Africa and other places have never even heard of Jesus.
But they HAVE heard of Coke.
Coca Cola makes no claim to be divine.
Jesus appeared around 2000 years ago.
Coca-Cola appeared in the 1880's.
How is it that a Perfect Being is so vastly less effective about getting the message out than a popular soft drink?
Please don't tell me that getting the message out was not Jesus' stated purpose.
He was a man of his time. In those times, no one was as competent as Coca-Cola is now.
Unless perhaps, he was omnipotent.
But, alas, it seems that he wasn't omnipotent.
Neither was Mohammad, perhaps not even Allah.
-
You sure throw words around like they're truth; "....he chose to let the job be done by amateurs, long after his death"
"Jesus did not want us to know what he had been up to between the age of 12 and 32."
BEcaUse JESUS DID NOT want us to know? really??
"We know much less about Jesus than we do about the other twoi,"
Speak for yourself and the frog in your pocket.
"More people have heard about Coca-Cola than Jesus.
Millions, perhaps billions of people in Asia and perhaps Africa and other places have never even heard of Jesus."
Perhaps if they knew Jesus, the taste test would be ?No contest?. After all, they have been bowing down to the wrong 'POP'!
"Coca Cola makes no claim to be divine."
Thank God!
"Jesus appeared around 2000 years ago.
Coca-Cola appeared in the 1880's.
How is it that a Perfect Being is so vastly less effective about getting the message out than a popular soft drink?"
We'll have to vote one of them off the Island.
"Please don't tell me that getting the message out was not Jesus' stated purpose."
He did get the message out. You just haven't been paying attention in your lifetime, XO.
Coca-Cola is not GOD> period. Big difference.
Faith, XO you must have faith in God to understand the difference between Coke and Christ. Must I teach you the difference here. Sorry but on condescension deserves another.
Look, I can't reply to your faith debate without getting into who Jesus really IS in the life of the "believer", Xavier. You lack that understanding of "belief and faith". I don't mean to be condescending, really I don't.
"He was a man of his time. In those times, no one was as competent as Coca-Cola is now."
Then Jesus is going to have to get a more competent PR woman.
Perhaps, Mary?
-
Typical Biblical "scholarship".
We aren't wrong, you just need to understand that the Western Wall of the Temple was not actually a wall of the Temple.
Bah!
Fundamentalist, indeed.
Sure, the evil Romans were just tools of God to punish the Jews for not following Jesus. Shuuuuuuure.
It ever so easier to make predictions after the event has occurred.
The western wall is not a wall of the temple , the temple was frestanding and the western wall has fill behind it.
The temple court was extended by the fill the western wall holds up.
I can imagine you suffering a fire that mostly demolished your home but having a conversation like this with an insurance adjuster who refuses to allow the damage to be total and pay the full replacement value because there is a retaining wall left undamaged in your yard.
You feel that I am reaching far to quibble , which is a good match for how I feel about your quibbleing.