Author Topic: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man  (Read 4170 times)

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Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2007, 11:50:52 AM »
TR On "Inhuman Conduct" Against Military Prisoners

02 Nov 2007 10:30 am

"The president desires to know in the fullest and most circumstantial manner all the facts, ... for the very reason that the president intends to back up the Army in the heartiest fashion in every lawful and legitimate method of doing its work; he also intends to see that the most vigorous care is exercised to detect and prevent any cruelty or brutality and that men who are guilty thereof are punished. Great as the provocation has been in dealing with foes who habitually resort to treachery, murder and torture against our men, nothing can justify or will be held to justify the use of torture or inhuman conduct of any kind on the part of the American Army,? - Teddy Roosevelt, upholding the American tradition that Bush and Cheney have unforgivably and indelibly trashed.

He was specifically referring to "waterboarding." There is no doubt whatsoever about the illegality of the practice.
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BT

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2007, 11:55:54 AM »
Quote
He was specifically referring to "waterboarding." There is no doubt whatsoever about the illegality of the practice.

Usually when there are disputes between the exutive and other branches the Supreme Court decides who is correct.

Have they?

Because if they haven't , there is doubt.


Amianthus

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2007, 11:59:43 AM »
He was specifically referring to "waterboarding."

Source? I don't see waterboarding mentioned anywhere in that quote.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2007, 01:13:10 PM »
The one most important question of the entire questioning of Mukasey has been to ask him whether he considers waterboarding torture. He refuses to say this. He will only say that IF waterboarding is a torture, then he opposes it. But he refuses to say whether he thinks that Chinese Water Torture, which is what waterboarding has been called since the Tong Dynasty is a form of torture.

I suspect that this is because if he admits that Chinese Water Torture (or American Water Torture) is indeed torture, then he, as attorney general, will be expected to prosecute those who have approved it for use on Iraqis, 'terrorist combatents', detainees, remandees and all manner of people who it has been used on, and perhaps the adinistration will be forced to arrest Cheney, Rummy, perhaps even Juniorbush himself and accuse him of torturing people.

Everyone knows that these clowns have used torture, everyone knows that there are many soldiers who saww it and refused to participate in it. There are many witnesses.  But Mukasey wants this job so utterly much and is sooooo grateful to Junorbush for nominating him, that he dares not say that water torture is torture.

I hardly think that the towering intellects of Scalia and Thomas are really needed to decide that water torture is torture, but even they would probably have to rule in favor of the view that it is torture.

Juniorbush wants the entire torture evidence to be hidden forever behind a veil of secrecy. This could be for the simple reason that he would prefer to not do hard time in Leavenworth, even though he had Cheney and Rummy for prospective cellmates and members of the Leavenworth Chess Club.

I think that locking these criminal dorks up would be a really good way to convince the rest of the world that the next administration was not as evil as the present crew of felons.
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Amianthus

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2007, 01:40:49 PM »
But he refuses to say whether he thinks that Chinese Water Torture, which is what waterboarding has been called since the Tong Dynasty is a form of torture.

The "Chinese Water Torture" is a different technique than waterboarding, and neither seem to have been developed by the Chinese. Chinese Water Torture seems to have been developed by the Italians and waterboarding seems to have been developed by the Spanish, both in the late middle ages.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2007, 02:55:01 PM »
Okay, so what is "Chinese Water Torture", and how is it different?

Waterboarding, as has been described in the press and on TV for the past four years, is clearly torture.

I did not claim that the Chinese invented it, that is just what it was called. It involves making people beileve that they wil be drowned if they do not comply with the interrogator.

It is superior to plugging one's genitals into an electrical grid because that leaves burn marks and scars. This does not mean that it is any less terrifying or painful.

It offers the possibility of denying that anything ever took place. That is why the Juniorbushies prefer to torture people with it than other less deniable forms of torture.

I am all for them turning Mukasey down and forcing Juniorbush to try harder and again. Gonzales was so utterly awful that someone extra-turthful is needed to counter the damage done by Gonzo over such a long time.

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2007, 03:23:41 PM »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2007, 05:03:28 PM »
The waterboarding technique was characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a "professional interrogation technique."[14] According to press accounts, a cloth or plastic wrap is placed over or in the person's mouth, and water is poured on to the person's head. As far as the details of this technique, press accounts differ - one article describes "dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect's face"[15], another states that "cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him."[16]

Two televised segments, one from Fox News and one from Current TV, demonstrate a waterboarding technique that may be the subject of these press descriptions.[17][18] In the videos, each correspondent is held against a board by the interrogators. In the Current TV segment, a rag is then forced into the correspondent's mouth, and several pitchers of water are poured onto the rag. The interrogators periodically remove the rag, and the correspondent is seen to gasp for breath.

The Fox News segment mentions five "phases" of which the first three are shown. In the first phase, water is simply poured onto the correspondent's face. The second phase is similar to the Current TV episode. In phase three, plastic wrap is placed over the correspondent's face, and a hole is poked into it over his mouth. Water is poured into his mouth through the hole, causing him to gag. He mentions that it really does cause him to gag; that it could lead to asphyxiation; and that he could stand it for only a few seconds.

CIA officers who subject themselves to the technique last an average of 14 seconds before caving in.[19]

Poorly executed waterboarding can cause extreme pain and damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, and sometimes broken bones because of the restraints applied to the struggling victim. The psychological effects can last long after waterboarding ends. Prolonged waterboarding can also cause death.[20]

Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, has treated "a number of people" who had been subjected to forms of near-asphyxiation, including waterboarding. An interview for The New Yorker states, "[He] argued that it was indeed torture, 'Some victims were still traumatized years later', he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. 'The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience,' he said."[21]

Proponents argue that the technique effectively produces information while only being used as a last resort to obtain critical information. They also argue that there is almost no risk of long-term bodily harm.[22] Opponents argue that this information may not be reliable because a person under such duress may admit to anything. The UN Convention Against Torture, which the United States ratified in 1994,[23] says in Article 2, "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture." Former CIA officer Bob Baer states that waterboarding is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough."[24]


Historical uses

Spanish Inquisition
From the article about the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834, with its most active period from 1480-1530), a form of torture similar to waterboarding called toca , along with garrucha (or strappado) and the most frequently used potro (or the rack), was used (though infrequently) during the trial portion of the Spanish Inquisition process. Quoting from the article: The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning.[25]
==========================================================================================
The original "Chinese Water Torture" involves strapping a person down and allowing water to drip, drip, drip on their forehead over an extended period of time, with the water being dripped at irregular intervals. This is said to cause insanity, eventually.

So it seems that the Porter Goss-approved waterboarding is WORSE than 'Chinese Water Torture'. And there seems to be very little doubt as to HOW it is done and WHAT it is.

So Mukasey looks like one of two things: (a) a hideous suckup or (2) a total moron. Anyone with even the brain of a demented Meerkat that is interviewing for the AG job should have done his homework as to what waterboarding is.

Did anyone notice how Goss, who was appointed rather triumphantly to the DCIA seems to have slunk away from the post with hardly any mention in the press at all?



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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2007, 05:07:31 PM »
If we must choose between Mukasey being the yes-man of Congress or another yes-man of Juniorbush, which is preferable?

I suggest that the former is far better than the latter, based on the fact that pretty much everything Juniorbush has touched has turned to sh*t.

He does the wrong things, incompetently. When reminded that he has done the wrong thing, he persists. When he is told that he has screwed up badly, it takes him a very long time to do it differently.

His stubborness and his bad judgement has become the stuff of legend.
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Amianthus

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2007, 05:10:57 PM »
Did anyone notice how Goss, who was appointed rather triumphantly to the DCIA seems to have slunk away from the post with hardly any mention in the press at all?

Didn't notice "hardly any mention" at all, since the press conference where it was announced was pretty well covered on TV and in the newspapers. You'd have to live under a rock to not know it happened.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2007, 05:28:20 PM »
I did not see or hear anything about Goss resigning or being canned.

They certainly made a far bigger deal of how great and well-suited he was to be DCIA when he came than they did about how bad he was or how much better his successor was when he quit.

Perhaps I was under a rock or something, but I missed it totally.
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Amianthus

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2007, 05:34:15 PM »
Perhaps I was under a rock or something, but I missed it totally.

Well, since I work in the finance industry, we always seem to have TVs around on various finance channels all day. They broke into the ongoing programs to make the announcement. I'm pretty sure they broke into the soap operas. And it was an AP item reported over the weekend (the resignation was on a Friday) so it was in every major newspaper.

Here's one example: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8HDP7AG2&show_article=1
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2007, 06:09:27 PM »
I don't watch soap operas, and I do normally watch the Friday evening news.
I get the Miami Herald every day.
They certainly made a bigger deal about Goss when he got the job than when he resigned.

That story you quote is pitifully short. About as wimpy a story as anyone could write about the DCIA.

Was there no speculation as to why he left? Was he forced out? Did he resign out of frustration? I guess we shall never know, unless he writes a book. And the book may be full of lies.

They know more about Bin Laden than they want to say publicly. I am sure that this terrifies the Hell out of him. He is shaking in his goat-roping sandals.

They do not, however, know enough about him to be able to arrest or kill him. A seven-foot tall Arab with a kidney problem would seem to be quiet easier to catch than  Bigfoot or a Yeti. I know that I am unimpressed.




« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 06:15:55 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
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Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2007, 09:24:30 PM »
Waterboarding is torture - I did it myself, says US advisor
By Leonard Doyle in Washington
Published: 01 November 2007

When the US military trains soldiers to resist interrogation, it uses a torture technique from the Middle Ages, known as "waterboarding". Its use on terror suspects in secret US prisons around the world has come to symbolise the Bush administration's no-nonsense enthusiasm for the harshest questioning techniques.

Although waterboarding has been considered torture for over a century and the US military is banned from using it, controversy over its continuing use by the CIA may be about to derail the appointment of President Bush's candidate for US Attorney-General.

Michael Mukasey, a retired federal judge from New York and a veteran of several al-Qa'ida trials, was questioned by a Senate committee on Tuesday and refused to say whether waterboarding was illegal.

Instead, he called the technique "repugnant to me" and promised to investigate further if he was confirmed in the job. He explained that he could not say yet whether the practice was illegal because he had not been briefed on the secret methods of US interrogators and he did not want to put the CIA officers who used it in "personal legal jeopardy".

Even though Congress banned waterboarding in the US military in 2005, it did not do so for the CIA. As a result, Mr Mukasey told senators, it was uncertain whether this technique or other harsh methods constituted "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment. His answers did not satisfy the Democrats, however, and his approval now hinges on whether he is willing to say the torture method is against US law.

In a further embarrassment for Mr Bush yesterday, Malcolm Nance, an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence, publicly denounced the practice. He revealed that waterboarding is used in training at the US Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School in San Diego, and claimed to have witnessed and supervised "hundreds" of waterboarding exercises. Although these last only a few minutes and take place under medical supervision, he concluded that "waterboarding is a torture technique ? period".

The practice involves strapping the person being interrogated on to a board as pints of water are forced into his lungs through a cloth covering his face while the victim's mouth is forced open. Its effect, according to Mr Nance, is a process of slow-motion suffocation.

Typically, a victim goes into hysterics on the board as water fills his lungs. "How much the victim is to drown," Mr Nance wrote in an article for the Small Wars Journal, "depends on the desired result and the obstinacy of the subject.

"A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience to horrific, suffocating punishment, to the final death spiral. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch."

The CIA director Michael Hayden has tried to defuse the controversy. He claims that, since 2002, aggressive interrogation methods in which a prisoner believes he is about to die have been used on only about 30 of the 100 al-Qai'da suspects being held by the US. Meanwhile, a CIA official told The New York Times waterboarding had only been used three times. The Bush administration has suggested that the interrogation of al-Qai'da's second-in-command, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, was a success thanks to the technique, and used this to justify continued aggressive interrogations of suspects in secret CIA prisons.

While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."

Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner ? it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."

Mr Mukasey's nomination goes before the Senate next week. Three Democratic presidential candidates, including Hillary Clinton, have already said they will not support him. However, the White House said yesterday that it did not believe his nomination was in jeopardy.

'I felt I was drowning and I was in terrible agony'

Henri Alleg, a journalist, was tortured in 1957 by French forces in Algeria. He described the ordeal of water torture in his book The Question. Soldiers strapped him over a plank, wrapped his head in cloth and positioned it beneath a running tap. He recalled: "The rag was soaked rapidly. Water flowed everywhere: in my mouth, in my nose, all over my face. But for a while I could still breathe in some small gulps of air. I tried, by contracting my throat, to take in as little water as possible and to resist suffocation by keeping air in my lungs for as long as I could. But I couldn't hold on for more than a few moments. I had the impression of drowning, and a terrible agony, that of death itself, took possession of me. In spite of myself, all the muscles of my body struggled uselessly to save me from suffocation. In spite of myself, the fingers of both my hands shook uncontrollably. 'That's it! He's going to talk,' said a voice.

The water stopped running and they took away the rag. I was able to breathe. In the gloom, I saw the lieutenants and the captain, who, with a cigarette between his lips, was hitting my stomach with his fist to make me throw out the water I had swallowed."

From: Alleg, Henri, The Question, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln: 2006; original French edition ? 1958 by Editions de Minuit

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article3115549.ece
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BT

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Re: Mukasey on refusing to be Congress's yes-man
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2007, 07:51:09 AM »
Exclusive: Only Three Have Been Waterboarded by CIA

November 02, 2007 1:25 PM

Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:

Exclusiveonly_mn For all the debate over waterboarding, it has been used on only three al Qaeda figures, according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials.

As ABC News first reported in September, waterboarding has not been used since 2003 and has been specifically prohibited since Gen. Michael Hayden took over as CIA director.

Officials told ABC News on Sept. 14 that the controversial interrogation technique, in which a suspect has water poured over his mouth and nose to stimulate a drowning reflex as shown in the above demonstration, had been banned by the CIA director at the recommendation of his deputy, Steve Kappes.

Hayden sought and received approval from the White House to remove waterboarding from the list of approved interrogation techniques first authorized by a presidential finding in 2002.

The officials say the decision was made sometime last year but has never been publicly disclosed by the CIA.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/exclusive-only-.html