Iraq Discussion.....for the rationally minded

[sirs]

For those who think Bush is Hitler, stole the election, it's all about the oil, garbage like that, please refrain from this thread

For those who believe the war was wrong (be it morally or whatever) and/or for those that believe the war is justified, I look forward to your comments

Question: Rightly or wrongly having entered Iraq, has the invasion made things worse, as it relates to increasing terrorist recruits & their potential attacks upon the U.S.?

I realize Radical Islam was going to gain in terrorist membership, but did our taking out Saddam and the WMD threat speed things up or slow it down?  It's really speculation at this point, since there's no way to compare what we did to a hypothetically what we didn't.  But from a common sense stand point (again referring to the rationally minded) has our entering Iraq & taking out Saddam, been a big mistake on the overall war on Terror?

[Plane]

How was Saddam going to cope with radical Islamists?

[BT]

.....has our entering Iraq & taking out Saddam, been a big mistake on the overall war on Terror?

From a military standpoint, i would say, no.

From a political standpoint, i can agree that though Iraq is a major part of the WOT, it has been a distraction. And will the effects of it being inflated to wedge issue, lead to the ultimate failure of the WOT? I don't know.

Sooner or later this country will need to do a soul searching gut check, and that will determine our future and the direction of the world as we know it.

[Michael Tee]

<<For those who think Bush is Hitler, stole the election, it's all about the oil, garbage like that, please refrain from this thread>>

Why?

<<For those who believe the war was wrong (be it morally or whatever) and/or for those that believe the war is justified, I look forward to your comments>>

That's more like it.  I believe the war was wrong.  Here's my comment.

<<Question: Rightly or wrongly having entered Iraq, has the invasion made things worse, as it relates to increasing terrorist recruits & their potential attacks upon the U.S.?>>

Yes to both questions. 

1.  Terrorist recruits:  A lot of Iraqis were killed by the American invasion.  Bombed to bits in their homes and shelters, shot full of holes at checkpoints, etc.  This sort of thing tends to encourage negative vibes.   The tens of thousands originally killed leave relatives behind, who feel kind of angry and bitter about the whole thing.  Now here's the truly incredible part of the story:  Even though the Americans came to bring democracy to Iraq and had no thoughts whatever about all the oil, some of the survivors of the invasion hated them!  Can you believe it?  The rank ingratitude!  You come all this way just to bring them democracy out of the sheer goodness of your hearts, honestly without even a thought for the oil, and all those annoying assholes can think about is, you killed their senile old fart of a father, you raped and mangled their ugly little slut of a sister!  But that's life.  Try to do a little good in the world, and what do you get?  It's almost enough to make you lose your faith in human nature.

Now I'm not saying that every single relative of every raped, tortured, kidnapped, murdered, shot up, blown up, bombed out, mutilated, buried alive Iraqi has gone and joined the "terrorists."  But I'm also not saying that all of those folks were brought up in an atmosphere of love, forgiveness, reconciliation and turning the other cheek either.  Family, even extended family, still means a lot to those folks and maybe some aren't as quick to forgive harm done to their loved ones and family members as we think they should be.  While some of those nasty little buggers actually believe in a culture of retaliation and revenge.   Truth to tell, this part of the world never did develop much of a reputation for non-violence or pacifism.

IMHO, asking if the invasion has increased the recruiting of "terrorists" is about as intelligent as asking if 9-11 has increased American interest in airport security.

2.  Potential attacks on the U.S.A. -- THINK about it.  You fuck with their women, children and elderly.  Now it's their turn.  How many American women, children and elderly do you think they're likely to find if they stay in Iraq?

[hnumpah]

Yes.

But since you consider me irrational, feel free to ignore that.

[Michael Tee]

I knew he was talking about YOU, hnumpah.  That's why I went ahead and answered his questions.

[hnumpah]

Well if you knew he was talking about me, I guess it's not just that I have some sort of persecution complex then...

[sirs]

<<For those who think Bush is Hitler, stole the election, it's all about the oil, garbage like that, please refrain from this thread>>

Why?

Since this thread is more geared to those who can think objectively vs hyperbolically, which includes those that believe war is morally wrong, but can actually grasp the concept of why we went in.  That way the criticisms they apply can be considered as rational vs delusional. 

Now, if you wish to engage in an irrational & delusional discussion about how going into Iraq was all about the oil, and the asanine Bush lied us into the war diatribes, by all means, start up one of those knute-like threads

Potential attacks on the U.S.A. -- THINK about it.  You fuck with their women, children and elderly.  Now it's their turn.  How many American women, children and elderly do you think they're likely to find if they stay in Iraq?

Perfect example of what I'm talking about.     

[sirs]

How was Saddam going to cope with radical Islamists?

Hmmm, well, since his enemies were their enemies, my guess he wouldn't of had a problem with them, as long as they didn't bother with his dictatorship.  And if he could get some big bucks out of it, all the better. 

[sirs]

.....has our entering Iraq & taking out Saddam, been a big mistake on the overall war on Terror?

From a military standpoint, i would say, no.

So, from your perspective you believe our going into Iraq has ......... done what to Militant Islam?
- Decreased their leadership ranks?
- Decentralized their communication/command structure?
- Made them have to focus many more of their assets in specific locations?

- What is your guess, from a military standpoint, have we been effective at, that likely would not have been the case, had we not gone into Iraq?

From a political standpoint, i can agree that though Iraq is a major part of the WOT, it has been a distraction. And will the effects of it being inflated to wedge issue, lead to the ultimate failure of the WOT? I don't know.

I can go along with that

Sooner or later this country will need to do a soul searching gut check, and that will determine our future and the direction of the world as we know it.

A couple more 911's?  Or will that simply be the new launching platform for blaming Bush, in allowing more 911's to happen?

[sirs]

Yes.  But since you consider me irrational, feel free to ignore that.

Ummm, if you say so.  Would have been nice to see a little more clarity & detail as to why, but whatever

[hnumpah]

Lots of things would be nice.

Like not being derided as irrational, or lacking some sort of common sense, or letting some supposed hatred of George Bush override my logic when it comes to my opinions of his actions.

And don't feel I am just picking on you. BT took a shot the other day, and RR accused me of being positively gleeful about some nonsensical shit.

So why should I offer reasons to back my conclusions just to get more of the same? Screw it.

[BT]

So, from your perspective you believe our going into Iraq has ......... done what to Militant Islam?
- Decreased their leadership ranks?
- Decentralized their communication/command structure?
- Made them have to focus many more of their assets in specific locations?

- What is your guess, from a military standpoint, have we been effective at, that likely would not have been the case, had we not gone into Iraq?

From a military standpoint  taking out Saddam was a success. As they switched gears from conquest to occupation, mistakes were made. Widespread looting and lawlessness should not have been toleated, the lack of law and order and the slow rebuilding effort all had negative impact. We should have surged two years ago.

I understand why we didn't and those decisions were made from a political rather than a military or operational viewpoint.

Some successes have occured. Free elections, Saddams capture and trial, Zarqawi's death.

But the average citizen of Iraq is not unlike the average citizen of the US. They want reasonable safety when they are out and about, they want clean water and heating, cooling and cooking power. They want to be able to go to work. They want to raise their families, they want a normal life and we haven't done the best job at facilitating that.

And that is not necessarily a military function. More a job for Peace Corps, Job Corps. Vista and all those other non military service type organizations. Let the military provide the security and put the kids to work.

[Michael Tee]

<<Perfect example of what I'm talking about.>>

What, common sense?  You were talking about common sense?  GOOD, plane, you're on the right track.  Finally.

[Michael Tee]

<<Since this thread is more geared to those who can think objectively vs hyperbolically, which includes those that believe war is morally wrong, but can actually grasp the concept of why we went in.>>

Oh, I KNOW why you went in, sirs, as does most of the rest of the world, in fact.  However the subject matter of this particular thread actually did not relate directly to that issue.