Collective Bargaining

[sirs]

Sure you are

Sure I am....what?

I suggest you check into open records and sunshine laws.
And perhaps have your legislators phone number on speed dial.

yea.....and??.....Governor still signs the legislation.  I have no control over that, especially in light that I never voted for him in the 1st place.  It's incredible this backbend you're trying to perform in pushing garbage that legislators and executives pull, onto the electorate.  Especially those that didn't vote for them in the 1st place.  It's one thing when the electorate votes for boneheaded and wreckless propositions.  Far different than when Politicans pull stuff that had they campaigned on, would have demonstrated precisely who supports their re-election and who doesn't

You remind me of a conversation I had with my wife a while back.  She complained alot about the same things I complained about.  I asked her if she voted.  At the time she hadn't, and I told her that she really didn't have a leg to stand on then.  She's voted ever since.  As such, if we vote one way, and the politicans do the opposite of what we voted for, it's pretty outlandish of you to try and lay the blame "inwardly" on me and my wife's lap.

But i suspect that you are happy just complaining about the situation.

You'd be wrong, but you've gotten pretty consistent in that area

I think that you have already conceded that the unions and the politicians that love them are better organized, smarter and have deeper pockets than those who oppose lavish pensions and total disregard for the public's tax burden.

Yea, that has to be it       

[BT]

You will just have to try harder. Your opponents don't seem to be having a problem getting what they want.

[sirs]

So hopefully now we can dispense with the inward blaming nonsense

[BT]

So hopefully now we can dispense with the inward blaming nonsense

Sure, if you refuse to accept responsibility for your role in the failed economic decisions of your elected representatives, that's fine with me. There is a large mental health industry built around denial.

[Plane]

http://afgelocal987.org/calendar/2008/11/15


My Union , sleep well tonight , we don't ever strike.

[sirs]

So hopefully now we can dispense with the inward blaming nonsense

Sure, if you refuse to accept responsibility for your role in the failed economic decisions of your elected representatives, that's fine with me. There is a large mental health industry built around denial.

Hard to "accept responsibility" for something one never supported or voted for in the 1st place.  But keep trying

[BT]

The responsibility lays with not having a persuasive enough argument so that your guy loses and the other guy wins.

[sirs]

LOL.....riiiiiiiight.  I have a closer connection & responsibility to Kevon Bacon than I do to what a governor I never voted for, who signs legislation that I never supported

[BT]

So why did you tell your wife that it was important to vote?

[Plane]

The responsibility lays with not having a persuasive enough argument so that your guy loses and the other guy wins.

  Doesn't one ever get to say "I  told you so?"

[Xavier_Onassis]

NO evidence has been produced that teachers in Wisconsin have "lavish pensions". I would think that teachers should be provided decent health care, if for no other reason than taxpayers should not have to fear that a flu or other epidemic disease be passed on to their children by an uninsured teacher and brought into their home. I would think that a faculty of typhoid Mary teachers would be opposed by any sane taxpayer.

Most teacher pensions are rather poorly managed, by the way, and teachers in many states cannot choose to put their money into established mutual funds that can be tracked and researched online by the usual means. As a public school teacher in Washington State and Maryland, I know that this was true of their state retirement plans.

This idiot reactionary governor is simply trying to bust the union. he is not concerned with education or children. I hope he fails miserably. This is not what he was elected to do.

[Christians4LessGvt]

The responsibility lays with not having a persuasive enough argument so that your
guy loses and the other guy wins.

BT although that might be correct on one level, doesn't that response
on a practical level kind of discourage new topics or debate? In that no
matter what anyone says or complains about basically it boils down to....
"sit down and shut up your guy didn't win because he
and you couldn't persuade enough people to vote for him/her"
Wouldn't it sort of be like if your buddy was complaining about
having poor health and you said "well if you had eaten right
and exercised enough this probably wouldn't have happened".
Probably true on some level, but see if that guy ever mentions
it again......why encourage people to clam up?

[BT]

The responsibility lays with not having a persuasive enough argument so that your
guy loses and the other guy wins.

BT although that might be correct on one level, doesn't that response
on a practical level kind of discourage new topics or debate? In that no
matter what anyone says or complains about basically it boils down to....
"sit down and shut up your guy didn't win because he
and you couldn't persuade enough people to vote for him/her"
Wouldn't it sort of be like if your buddy was complaining about
having poor health and you said "well if you had eaten right
and exercised enough this probably wouldn't have happened".
Probably true on some level, but see if that guy ever mentions
it again......why encourage people to clam up?

I don't see where it discourages the debate, what it does it set the valid parameters for the debate.

The real issue is whether public employees should have the right to collectively bargain.

The real issue is not whether Plane is the scum of the earth for belonging to a public employees union.

So why don't we just skip the demonizing crap and debate the real issue?

[sirs]

Boy, I SURE would like to know who made the claime that merely being a Union Member delegated that person to the level of "scum of the earth"??  That's quite the strawman when we're supposedly talking about "debating the real issue"

[BT]

We're not talking Private sector here.  We're talking Public Employee unions.  Those that are employed by the government, and payed for by tax payers.   It is precisely the cushy union facilitated perks, salaries, and benefits, with pension plans that put nearly every employee in the private sector to shame, that was "ok" when the economy was humming.  Low and behold, when the economy tanked, guess who's been stuck with the bar tab as these lucrative public union salary & pension plans still need to be paid for......the tax payers.  While the private sector continues to lay off thousands upon thousands, and 401k's have been decimated, GOVERNMENT jobs, under Obama have actually increased, with all their cushy salaries, free healthcare, and pension plans that we, the tax payers, still legally have to pay for

My bad. I didn't realize you were being complimentary.