Author Topic: question about hillary  (Read 13819 times)

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kimba1

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2008, 04:33:37 PM »
but the real question is has education ever really got respect to begin with?
look at our expressions brain,nerd
can you honestly think  those names are used in a positive light?
an interest in science fiction tends to make a person to be interested in science and math.
but would parents support this or steer them in sports?
bill gates is the riches man on earth and never once I hear he`s dating material.
theirs alot of cultural baggage for a kid to be studious,unless they`re into sports.



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2008, 04:44:53 PM »
HOWEVER, to be frank, what they make is determined by SUPPLY AND DEMAND, namely there are enough people, primarily women, that will work that job for that pay. If there weren't, the pay would be higher.
==================================================================

What would happen is the teachers might get paid more, but they would have 50 or 60 teachers in every class.

American society does not value knowledge for its own sake, or critical thinking, or independent, creative thought. It is what every society needs, but when these traits occur, it is most often DESPITE the society.

Competition is useful in some aspects, but by and large, it only creates small elites of privileged characters and general incompetence of everyone else.

One example is how we teach PE. The coach picks the biggest and strongest kids, which are a tiny minority, and 90% of the school's resources are dedicated to developing superior basketball, football, and baseball (and occasionally track and gfield ) players. The skinny kid, the fat kid, the kid with poor hand-eye coordination only gets to do jumping jacks and push-ups and rope climbing as the Coach and the physically talented kids mock them.

The goal of a good educational program does involve developing useful skills in as much of the population as is possible. Identifying one or two star athletes or spelling chganmpions is perhaps good for the winners, but it ignores everyone else.

Giving bonuses and raises only to the few teachers whose students score highest on multiple choice exams will likely cause so much resentment among the unrewarded members of the faculty that this will not be made up for by the improvement in the few classes they teach vis a vis all the other classes they do not teach.

The former way to reward good teachers is to make them administrators and double their salaries, and that is even worse.


The main reason why US schools are so poor compared with those of other countries is that they are run by school boards composed of local yokels, as opposed to people who have professional training in education, by which I mean not just methodology but in subject material as well. 

School board elections generally fail to have more than 20% voter participation, and a lot of morons and people with agendas are elected. The Miami-Dade County School Board has a clown named Demetrio Perez on it. He has no degrees, but he owns a number of private schools. He votes against improvements in the areas where his schools are, and votes against such things as improved security, because he knows that every knifing, every fight in a public school will cause increased enrollment in the schools he owns. Generally, he accuses those who run against him of being "communists", which seems to get out a small and predictable number of Cubans to vote for him.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2008, 05:22:28 PM »
Hmmm, being a homeschooling parent, I have a basic distrust of public schools. You should hear the horror stories of osme homeschoolers I know because they didn't follow the party line in this regard. My daughter scored a 1370 on her SAT yet the local school board tried to MAKE ME give her an entire class in African American studies. I said it was already part of her curriculum but they wanted MORE coverage. I said NYET and had to get the Home School Legal Defense Dund attorneys involved (see www.hslda.org). The local school board quickly backed off. Then they tried to tell the number of hours day she was supposed to study; I told 'em it was not an issue of quantity but quality and so it varied, depnding upon what needed to get doen that day. THey didn't like that either. Well, too bad. ONE more call and they backed off again. BTW, my HOMESCHOOLED daughter scored a 1370 on her SAT.

I would like control of local schools to be by ELECTED local citizens via school boards or some other mechanism just as I would want more control to be transferred from the Federal sector to the local one in many areas. You wouldn't believe the number of educated baffoons I see every day from the Education Division. No real clue as to what to do other than what they were taught in textbooks. Plus, their secular humanism viewpoint is yet another reason I distrust them.
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yellow_crane

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2008, 07:44:53 PM »



Education in this country is truly sick.

People like XO, all good teachers, can only perform from their sphere, and all other energy is spent battling with the front office on issues that largely lie in the folder marked "PI Political Correctness."  I speak here only of public education, middle and high school level.

It has become that no subject of discussion can really be permitted because it will fall to somebody as inappropriate.  Somebody, however tangential. 

Since inappropriate can mean anything (Nixon used the words "inappropriate" and "appropriate" as a major coping mechanism (( . . .deal with that at the appropriate time . . .))) then anything defines the parameters--anything.  So, in anticipated defense, nothing.

There is not a bot of discussion in schools these days, folks. 

There is only adherrance to a dignified silence, born of fear of speaking outside the newly laid parameters.  Christians, true to their obsessions, organize parents by the group to have all kids report all references to a multitude of presented agendas in a school, their phones always on the ready.

As a consequence, with no power to teach, they are putting in their time.

Ask any principal.  Get him/her drunk first--they are so used to lying, spinning, pretending to be real, you have to get them snockered to get them honest.



kimba1

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2008, 07:48:56 PM »
so far the thing I notice here about school education is a need to cut education from poor performing students.
teachers don`t want to teach them and parent don`t want thier kids near them.
It seems the answer is to dump these highly unlikely to learn kids and not bother even trying
am I wrong ?
I notice age was not mentioned ,does this mean from kindergarten it can be known a kid to not able to learn?
I get this message due to the fact nobody mention about teaching the difficult to learn kids.
but a preference not to teach them at all.

The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2008, 10:37:58 PM »



Education in this country is truly sick.

People like XO, all good teachers, can only perform from their sphere, and all other energy is spent battling with the front office on issues that largely lie in the folder marked "PI Political Correctness."  I speak here only of public education, middle and high school level.

It has become that no subject of discussion can really be permitted because it will fall to somebody as inappropriate.  Somebody, however tangential. 

Since inappropriate can mean anything (Nixon used the words "inappropriate" and "appropriate" as a major coping mechanism (( . . .deal with that at the appropriate time . . .))) then anything defines the parameters--anything.  So, in anticipated defense, nothing.

There is not a bot of discussion in schools these days, folks. 

There is only adherrance to a dignified silence, born of fear of speaking outside the newly laid parameters.  Christians, true to their obsessions, organize parents by the group to have all kids report all references to a multitude of presented agendas in a school, their phones always on the ready.

As a consequence, with no power to teach, they are putting in their time.

Ask any principal.  Get him/her drunk first--they are so used to lying, spinning, pretending to be real, you have to get them snockered to get them honest.




So,
Crane, what then is YOUR solution?
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Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2008, 11:12:14 PM »
I totally comcur, but how might this be accompished? A culture-wide phenomenon might have to happen, eh?

Except is has got to be about more than just money...

Yes, a paradigm shift, of sorts, has to occur, Professor.
That's what my "Integration of Curriculum" professor really meant.

 Our nation has to rethink how we take care to raise the "young child".

Doesn't mean that:

(a) all mothers MUST stay home and take care of their children full time
(b) Companies, and businesses MUST find the resources to educate those children under 4
(c) all public schools are bad apples and all private schools are green apples-there is a happy median certainly so

There is no one quick trick pony for all of this.

 There has to a way to solve the problem, but sadly no one has understood the issue enough to care. My discussion with Dr. Laughlin was back in 1986! Nothin' has changed since....I remember thinking perhpas there was a light at the endof the tunnel in terms of awareness. Women were really starting to hit the work force in full force back then, and children were being placed in day care centers in record numbers.

Sure we provide for the women of this country, but we really don't provide the quality for the quiet ones....the little ones.

Women have every right to be president, if they want....they also have every right to be a mother at home (single or married)

It doesn't take a village to raise a child.   It takes competent, caring educated parents to raise a child. (a Perfect world)



 I firmly believe that is just as important to be raised by mommie, if not more so that to take the  BABy Einstein IQ test...;)

What's wrong with staying at home during the formative years, interacting with a neighborhood of kids, participating in  organized events provided by organized, loving parents? Ex:  playing ball, reading, producing mini plays in a neighborhood garage, art classes by artist moms, taffy pulls at once house.
It takes thoughtful parents, and wise moms to organize a QUALITY raising, as we had as young children. 

Who has that now?
Some...Perhaps some, like yourself, prof....folks who homeschool their  children.....not always an easy thing to do for most. Many hoops to jump through, issues of socialization, competent parents who are willing to learn how to teach a child. Not as easy as it sounds.....Not to mention that religious values are a huge reason for homeschooling these days.

It takes focus on what is important.


Just a NOTE:
I bitched the other night about the "theater people".....frankly, it was a pleasing experience to watch the Golden Globes sans the glitz and hype. Sit home, theater people....receive your "grade", and move on to ACT.  It's our job.

I am becoming a bit of a leftist...sorry to say, when it comes to some issues. This nation is far to selfish, and hungry for an audience.

That audience starts out by following the "idol" adoringly until that idol decides she/he has had enough....thus killing self or falling on the stage of fire, ready to burn at the expense of the greed for glitz. Not right. (my leftish rant)


Anyway, we must shift our focus towards children, lest we find ourselves in a state of no return both economically and socially.



 

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2008, 11:23:04 PM »
HOWEVER, to be frank, what they make is determined by SUPPLY AND DEMAND, namely there are enough people, primarily women, that will work that job for that pay. If there weren't, the pay would be higher.
==================================================================

What would happen is the teachers might get paid more, but they would have 50 or 60 teachers in every class.

American society does not value knowledge for its own sake, or critical thinking, or independent, creative thought. It is what every society needs, but when these traits occur, it is most often DESPITE the society.

Competition is useful in some aspects, but by and large, it only creates small elites of privileged characters and general incompetence of everyone else.

One example is how we teach PE. The coach picks the biggest and strongest kids, which are a tiny minority, and 90% of the school's resources are dedicated to developing superior basketball, football, and baseball (and occasionally track and gfield ) players. The skinny kid, the fat kid, the kid with poor hand-eye coordination only gets to do jumping jacks and push-ups and rope climbing as the Coach and the physically talented kids mock them.

The goal of a good educational program does involve developing useful skills in as much of the population as is possible. Identifying one or two star athletes or spelling chganmpions is perhaps good for the winners, but it ignores everyone else.

Giving bonuses and raises only to the few teachers whose students score highest on multiple choice exams will likely cause so much resentment among the unrewarded members of the faculty that this will not be made up for by the improvement in the few classes they teach vis a vis all the other classes they do not teach.

The former way to reward good teachers is to make them administrators and double their salaries, and that is even worse.


The main reason why US schools are so poor compared with those of other countries is that they are run by school boards composed of local yokels, as opposed to people who have professional training in education, by which I mean not just methodology but in subject material as well. 

School board elections generally fail to have more than 20% voter participation, and a lot of morons and people with agendas are elected. The Miami-Dade County School Board has a clown named Demetrio Perez on it. He has no degrees, but he owns a number of private schools. He votes against improvements in the areas where his schools are, and votes against such things as improved security, because he knows that every knifing, every fight in a public school will cause increased enrollment in the schools he owns. Generally, he accuses those who run against him of being "communists", which seems to get out a small and predictable number of Cubans to vote for him.


American society does not value knowledge for its own sake, or critical thinking, or independent, creative thought. It is what every society needs, but when these traits occur, it is most often DESPITE the society.

Right!

Competition is useful in some aspects, but by and large, it only creates small elites of privileged characters and general incompetence of everyone else.

Right!

Giving bonuses and raises only to the few teachers whose students score highest on multiple choice exams will likely cause so much resentment among the unrewarded members of the faculty that this will not be made up for by the improvement in the few classes they teach vis a vis all the other classes they do not teach.

Oh my dear God, Right!



The main reason why US schools are so poor compared with those of other countries is that they are run by school boards composed of local yokels, as opposed to people who have professional training in education, by which I mean not just methodology but in subject material as well. 


In France, the school curriculum maintains the same material, and expectations year to year...decade to decade. Parents are not surprised about what is required of the child, children know exactly what to expect and get right to work, and the end result is not a swing of new ideas, crappy rhetoric, or patchy excuses for poor quality. It just is. Stable, consistent, and solid.
Here in the USofA we reinvent the wheel depending on who has been ELECTED....on all levels.
I repeat....it is not the damn teachers who are at fault, nor is it the system necessarily. You give me the chance to teach...I'll do it. I do it every day...and folks like Yellow, who know nothing about the issue will continue to rant and post editorials.

Depth of the problem far outweighs the height of  the solution. As a nation, sometimes I feel as though we are adolescents in scope. Europe has been there...done that  ....and we have a lot to learn. We keep trying to please, and yet we are as mad as hell and not gunna take it any more, mentality. Americans are afraid to work. Americans don't want to take on the responsibility of a failure. Sorry, but god, I am sounding more left than I had realized. ha! But, I am a free thinker, and I don't like what I see.

It's not always about who is running the school board, although that is a major factor, XO...good point. It is also about the public outrage in the other direction...in the direction of quality in terms of  the Q public taking on some responsibility. WE must stop passing teh buck and making excuses for poverty of minds.

No wonder we fail.


We have to refuse to 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 11:28:34 PM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2008, 11:30:12 PM »
Quote
it is not the damn teachers who are at fault, nor is it the system necessarily.

nonsense.

teachers and the system lost control of the classroom and the students within a long time ago.

getting that back would go along ways towards solving the problem.

Step 1.

set up a separate school for kids with discipline problems.


Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2008, 11:37:44 PM »
but the real question is has education ever really got respect to begin with?
look at our expressions brain,nerd
can you honestly think  those names are used in a positive light?
an interest in science fiction tends to make a person to be interested in science and math.
but would parents support this or steer them in sports?
bill gates is the riches man on earth and never once I hear he`s dating material.
theirs alot of cultural baggage for a kid to be studious,unless they`re into sports.





Well, Kimmie....ambivalence is part of human nature.

A nerd to one is a hot commodity to another, ;)

Seriously,  I see what you are saying. In general, those attitudes are prevalent in High School teenagers.....(cough) sometimes..... I still think  that our nation is adolescent in nature. We tend to glorify those who are
a)rich
b)sexy
c) rich and sexy
d) HEROS.....in sports: (

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2008, 11:38:49 PM »
Quote
it is not the damn teachers who are at fault, nor is it the system necessarily.

nonsense.

teachers and the system lost control of the classroom and the students within a long time ago.

getting that back would go along ways towards solving the problem.

Step 1.

set up a separate school for kids with discipline problems.



Uh....no. not realistic, BT


BT

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2008, 11:40:06 PM »
why not?

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2008, 11:40:39 PM »
"teachers and the system lost control of the classroom and the students within a long time ago."

That's an insult, BT.

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2008, 11:42:16 PM »
"set up a separate school for kids with discipline problems."

why not?

Ok...why don't you explain HOW.

Start there, please.

How can we 'SET UP' a separate school for kids with D problems?

BT

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2008, 11:43:52 PM »
Build a building, or convert an existing one.

Staff it

Populate it with those who disrupt class.


Objections?