Death Knell for "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?

[Plane]

Same reason they never let me into the girls locker room at the gym. I am quite sure that I cold keep my hands to myself , but this seems to not be the only objection.

If it were a woman bunking next to you thinking that you were attractive, would you have the same reaction or does that pertain solely to a homosexual?

That is a good question , I am presently bunking with a female who thinks I am attractive (no small miricle that) but she insisted on marrage .If I were just slightly more repulsive this might be no issue.


Why indeed do they segregate the sexes on board a warship?





USS Pampanito (SS-383)


USS MIAMI, SSN-755, a Los Angeles-class nuclear powered fast-attack sub


http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_archive.html


Post script, in finding these pictures I learned that Submarines are getting better and are only stacked three high now ,but they still have to practice "hot racking" a practice by which your bunk is only yours for an eight hour shift , it is someone eleses territory the rest of the time.

[fatman]

Ha, nice dodge Plane, but you know what I mean

[Plane]

fatman love affairs & the battlefield dont mix
hetro or homo

The problem with this argument is that you're assuming that because a serviceman is gay that he'll be sleeping with other servicemen.

Preferential treatment and harrassment is ALREADY a significant problem for the Armed services , they already do everything humanly possible to keep the rutting from the unwilling and the willing from meeting. It is a lot of effort that often fails .


Tell me why don't you, that Homosexuals are so much better than ordinary people that their addition to the mix will not worsen this problem?

[Plane]

Ha, nice dodge Plane, but you know what I mean

If you think I dodged , I must have failed to understand.

[fatman]

Tell me why don't you, that Homosexuals are so much better than ordinary people that their addition to the mix will not worsen this problem?

Whoa there.  I've never claimed that they're better than ordinary people, I just don't think that we're any worse.  If preferential treatment is already a problem, then why does it make sense to bring up arguments like CU4 did against homosexuals serving?  From what I can understand, your argument is that the system is broken, and introducing homosexuals will only break it more.  Tell me if I've got that wrong?  The fact is that there are gays serving right now, right this minute in the military.  Some of them are probably sleeping with other service members, some of them probably think that their bunk buddy is attractive.  So what?  Your solution to the broken system is not to fix the system, but to exclude any other variables.  Not only does that go against everything that America stands for, it's wrong.  Just because the military can't get a handle on the preferential treatment that is already ongoing is not an adequate justification to keep gays out of the military.

[fatman]

Ha, nice dodge Plane, but you know what I mean

If you think I dodged , I must have failed to understand.

It didn't look like you answered the question that you were responding to, though the misunderstanding could very well be my own.

[Plane]

Tell me why don't you, that Homosexuals are so much better than ordinary people that their addition to the mix will not worsen this problem?

Whoa there.  I've never claimed that they're better than ordinary people, I just don't think that we're any worse.  If preferential treatment is already a problem, then why does it make sense to bring up arguments like CU4 did against homosexuals serving?  From what I can understand, your argument is that the system is broken, and introducing homosexuals will only break it more.  Tell me if I've got that wrong?  The fact is that there are gays serving right now, right this minute in the military.  Some of them are probably sleeping with other service members, some of them probably think that their bunk buddy is attractive.  So what?  Your solution to the broken system is not to fix the system, but to exclude any other variables.  Not only does that go against everything that America stands for, it's wrong.  Just because the military can't get a handle on the preferential treatment that is already ongoing is not an adequate justification to keep gays out of the military.

    Homosexual attraction is a mystery to me , is it less potent than the attraction that causes thousands of rapes in every state and every class of hetrosexual ?

     A homosexual that can keep his secret has the right to keep his thoughts to himself nd cause no problems , but I wouldn't reccomend a military carreer , that is a long time to keep a secret , it must be a stress. But that secrecy is the essence of allowing the homosexual to walk into the bunking area where the opposite sex is not allowed.

[kimba1]

this is a flaw arguement
somehow it`s assumed gay servicemen are attracted to all men.
and assumed gay service men can`t be effective military people by choosing lovers over anybody else
if you remember one of the problem with gays in the military is too many outed gays are officer grade personel
it seems that gays tend to apply upwardly more than straight personel.
remember out of all the stereotypes of gays.
underachieving is never one of them.
I never heard of any being discharged due to ability
remember the military is highly anti-gay
so it`

[kimba1]

oop
it got away from me

so it`s very doubtful the military would be chicken to advertise how bad gays are in the military.

I brought up racism because it`s the same
people who are uncomfortable with a group of people
except gays are way less noticeable.
come to think of it
I don`t recall very much on sexual misconduct used on discharging of gays
I know for fact it happens
but strangely it not very publized.
very strange

[Plane]

if people are sleeping with each other
it makes the team less effective in battle

The Spartans and Greeks would disagree with you. As well as quite a few other cultures.

Perhaps , but do we know from the Spartans that Spartans were Homosexuals , or do we catch this "fact " of them from their good rivals in Athens?

[Plane]

Same reason they never let me into the girls locker room at the gym. I am quite sure that I cold keep my hands to myself , but this seems to not be the only objection.

If it were a woman bunking next to you thinking that you were attractive, would you have the same reaction or does that pertain solely to a homosexual?

Here is trying again.

Yes , no.

[Amianthus]

Perhaps , but do we know from the Spartans that Spartans were Homosexuals , or do we catch this "fact " of them from their good rivals in Athens?

The Spartans inherited much of their culture from the Dorians, and the Greeks from the Spartans.

Actually, Aristotle criticized their military, saying were not as effective as the Greeks because their fighters were not lovers with each other as the Greeks were. However, many other contemporary sources do document a similar pederasty arrangement in Spartans as the Dorians, Minoans, Greeks, etc all had. Most likely Aristotle's comments were an early form of propaganda.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Everyone knows that in a battle, people fight hardest to defend their comrades. I don;t think it makes a lot of difference if these comrades are lovers or just buddies. I really don't think that the problem is with male homosexuals as compared with male heterosexuals.

There is a problem with women, as they tend not to be so recklessly brave as men in combat. Of course, since most troops are NOT on the front lines, this does not mean that there is not a place for women in the military. Perhaps the best place for them is not front line combat.

[Plane]

Everyone knows that in a battle, people fight hardest to defend their comrades. I don;t think it makes a lot of difference if these comrades are lovers or just buddies. I really don't think that the problem is with male homosexuals as compared with male heterosexuals.

There is a problem with women, as they tend not to be so recklessly brave as men in combat. Of course, since most troops are NOT on the front lines, this does not mean that there is not a place for women in the military. Perhaps the best place for them is not front line combat.

These are Army sorts of problems , Sailors have had very little face to face combat since the invention of the Drednaught , so a ship "manned" by a crew of women would probly be just as effective as a male crewed ship.

The problems I have been speaking of occur because of the juxtaposition of the diffrent sexes in cramped quarters over long periods. It has been a big failure because young men do not ignore young women , old men don't either.

[fatman]

"Over the past 10 years more than 10,000 personnel have been discharged as a result of [Don't Ask, Don't Tell], including 800 with skills deemed 'mission critical,' such as pilots, combat engineers, and linguists. These are the very job functions for which the military has experienced personnel shortfalls. General John M. Shalikashvili, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1993 when the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy was enacted, no longer supports the policy because he now believes that allowing Gay men and women to serve openly in the military would no longer create intolerable tension among personnel and undermine cohesion. A recent Zogby poll supports this view. It found that three-quarters of Afghanistan and Iraq veterans were comfortable interacting with Gay people."

-Lawrence J. Korb, assistant secretary of defense under President Reagan, testifying before the House Committee on Armed Services, April 16.

Looks like the ASD under Reagan disagrees with you, along with three quarters of current servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan.