The Corner (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDMxYjNmMzBiNDAyYWM0Y2JiZjdjZGVjNGZkNGVhNTM=)
Thank God we live in a free country, where you can speak your mind on public issues, without fear that those who disagree will respond by exposing anything you've ever done that you regret or that could embarrass your family.
Oh, wait, never mind. We have to know, according to some (http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/Joe_not_a_licensed_plumber_McCains_enthusiasm_not_diminished.html?showall), about Joe the Plumber's tax lien, and how he doesn't have a license - which, if the smear artists bothered to check the law, he only needs (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4740) for commercial work, not residential work.
This is the way our opponents operate now. Destroy anyone who stands in your way. Humiliate them. Make sure that anyone else who ever wants to skeptically question Barack Obama knows that every last bit of their dirty laundry will be aired for all the world to see. Bristol Palin, Trig Palin, ? hey, it's all fair game. They've got to make an example of them. Show them that this sort of dangerous speech won't be allowed in the New America.
Remember the man in the plaid shirt, standing at the town meeting in one of Norman Rockwell's "Four Freedoms" paintings? He wouldn't recognize this country anymore.(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/17/Save_Freedom_of_Speech.png/425px-Save_Freedom_of_Speech.png)
...Joe the Plumber's tax lien, and how he doesn't have a license - which, if the smear artists bothered to check the law, he only needs for commercial work, not residential work.
This is the way our opponents operate now. Destroy anyone who stands in your way. Humiliate them. Make sure that anyone else who ever wants to skeptically question Barack Obama knows that every last bit of their dirty laundry will be aired for all the world to see. Bristol Palin, Trig Palin, ? hey, it's all fair game. They've got to make an example of them. Show them that this sort of dangerous speech won't be allowed in the New America.
QuoteThis is the way our opponents operate now. Destroy anyone who stands in your way. Humiliate them. Make sure that anyone else who ever wants to skeptically question Barack Obama knows that every last bit of their dirty laundry will be aired for all the world to see. Bristol Palin, Trig Palin, ? hey, it's all fair game. They've got to make an example of them. Show them that this sort of dangerous speech won't be allowed in the New America.
Boo hoo.
What's fair for the goose, etc...
Quote...Joe the Plumber's tax lien, and how he doesn't have a license - which, if the smear artists bothered to check the law, he only needs for commercial work, not residential work.
The burly, bald man acknowledged he doesn't have a plumber's license, but said he didn't need one because he works for someone else at a company that does residential work.
But Wurzelbacher still would need to be a licensed apprentice or journeyman to work in Toledo, and he's not, said David Golis, manager and residential building official for the Toledo Division of Building Inspection.
State and local records show Wurzelbacher has no license, although his employer does. Golis said there are no records of inspectors citing Wurzelbacher for unlicensed work in Toledo. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081017/ap_on_re_us/joe_the_plumber (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081017/ap_on_re_us/joe_the_plumber)
So now who needs to check the law?
... the way the pro-Obama media and bloggers, and Obama himself, have responded to Joe has got me nearly shaking with rage. They are attempting to destroy a man ? a private citizen ? who had the audacity to ask The One a question. Mind you, Joe was on his front lawn playing football with his son when Obama strolled up to give him his hopenchange spiel. Obama approached Joe, not the other way around. And Joe asked Obama an honest question. And Obama gave him an honest ? and very, very revealing ? answer. Again, mind you, the embarassment was on Obama's end, not Joe's. It wasn't a gotcha question.
And yet, for that Joe is being pilloried, every aspect of his private and professional life being sorted through and exposed. To prove ... what? What does that have to do with Obama's answer? What does Joe's situation have to do with Obama's philosophical answer ? that he wants to "spread the wealth"? Obama's answer goes down the memory hole while the nation concentrates its fire on obliterating Joe the Plumber.
It is not Obama's fault that Joe the Plumber was not who he said he was. Joe got his 15 minutes of fame, if he didn't want this, he could have claimed to be who he was and not who he wasn't. I feel sort of sorry for the guy, he is just trying to make a living, and to some degree living in his head, thinking about buying out his boss when he probably could not finance a new refrigerator.
If the media is to blame for disrespecting Joe the Plumber, blame them, not Obama. Not McCain, either. Both took the guy at his word.
Whinging that it is Obama's fault will not change that continuing fallacy.
QuoteWhinging that it is Obama's fault will not change that continuing fallacy.
I didn't see in the original post where anyone blamed Obama. So that is a fiction.
I believe the blame was assigned to the same assholes who propagate the nonsense about the Palin family. You know. SOME Obama supporters.
Shall we revisit the litany of slurs leveled at them? Incest, Bristol, Trig etc?
Proud moments in surrogate history.
The Joe who asked Obama about taxes and got the response about redistribution of wealth was a real person.
His destruction by the press and by Obama surrogates is beyond the pale.
What next, burning down homes with McCain Palin signs.
Obama needs to settle down his own mob instead of whinging about GOP crowds.
Hard to claim the high road when both parties are in the ditch.
The Joe who asked Obama about taxes and got the response about redistribution of wealth was a real person.
His destruction by the press and by Obama surrogates is beyond the pale.
What next, burning down homes with McCain Palin signs.
Obama needs to settle down his own mob instead of whinging about GOP crowds.
Hard to claim the high road when both parties are in the ditch.
I saw Joe on ABC and he is not a real person. He is a RW nutcase like y'all.
That ought to teach Obama not to speak to randomly chosen Americans , the number of genuine right wingers is high enough to make the odds even that he will be talking to someone who will ask him a question requireing thinking to answer.
Did you notice that the answer that Joe got was more sincere than the medea reporters have been getting?
==========================================================================
If the average Joe made $250,000 a year, we could lower the tax rate a lot.
Joe will benefit most from Obama's tax plan that from McCain's If Joe is really lucky, it may make sense for him to be a Republican at some time in the next 20 years, but not now. It would be self-destructive for Joe to vote for McCain until he stands to benefit.
Oh please. Using some hyperbole?
I think that "Joe" will be just fine as none of the realities of his life are earth-shattering (or for that matter - interesting). And really...playing the victim? Isn't it a little early for that?
Joe is ambitious , Obama wants to spread the wealth.
Should Joe become a civil servant ?
You are ambitious, you are some sort of civilian airplane repairman. Do you make $250,000 a year? Should Joe follow your example, or shouldn't he?
Of course, if you are a Civil Servant, you can forget about buying out the boss.
I am guessing that you will need to give up on the $250,000 ambition as well.
QuoteOh please. Using some hyperbole?
I think that "Joe" will be just fine as none of the realities of his life are earth-shattering (or for that matter - interesting). And really...playing the victim? Isn't it a little early for that?
Two points.
Earlier you said people ae blaming Obama for what has happened to Joe. Could you show me a post by a member of this forum showing that?
And secondly noone is playing victim.
Destroying a persons reputation because he dared asked a question of Obama and Obama wishes he could rephrase his answer is not the type of country your god and your religion and your own personal credo wishes it to be , so why make fucking excuses for the low lifes who think everyone is fair game?
What happened o Joe was wrong, you and i both know it.
That said, the way the pro-Obama media and bloggers, and Obama himself, have responded to Joe has got me nearly shaking with rage. They are attempting to destroy a man
Is that proof enough Bt? And before you say that the words were not hers, please note that she did say that they were written better than she could express it herself. It is right there in black and white.
I'm not defending the press, McCain, or Obama or any of the dirty politics that get played in this system. But don't you defend this damned system and then turn around and bitch about the consequences of it. Moreover, don't give me the hypocritical crap that somehow Obama is worse about it than anyone else. That's what really strikes me in all of this. As if W, McCain, Clinton, Reagan, or any of them would have let one simpleton stand in their way to the presidency. To scoff at it because Obama is the Democrat is a joke.
Destroy Joe the Plumber? Please. It was pointed out - by the media, mind you ....
You just wish that Tony Rezko was important enough to cause Obama to lose. And he isn't.
And what made him worthy of the descent locusts upon his house? He asked Obama a question.
And Obama gave him an answer that was heard around the world.
But the real reason was because McCain used that interaction in a debate ...
The old fart wouldn't shut up about him.
Anytime some individual becomes part of a debate, the media is going to dredge up all the facts.
Joe claimed that he was going to buy a business that earned over $250K a year, and he couldn't not pay even $1600 in taxes. So of course it is pertinent, because Joe's case was bogus. Joe seems not to have a pot to p*ss in.
Not sure whether it justifies it though.
The information about the tax lien and the license is most likely a matter of public record. If he hadn't wanted someone to dig it out, maybe he should have stayed away from the cameras. Once he stepped into the media spotlight, he became fair game.
And I don't believe he needs a license if he works for a licensed plumber. Not for residential work in the state of Ohio.
Golis said there are no records of inspectors citing Wurzelbacher for unlicensed work in Toledo.
What the hell has happened to you _JSOV?
Sure you are. Would you destroy a neighbor because you didn't like his choice in music, you didn't like the color he painted his house, the church he attends, or doesn't attend; or any other expression of choice?
Would you destroy him because he said the Cubs and Dolphins suck and was quoted on the news as saying so and the Phillies and Eagles management put the quotes in the lockerrom, firing up the players and costing your teams the championship?
Would you?Quote
Of course not.
What do you want from me? I've attacked this system, both economically and politically to be called some really nasty names such as: "anti-Semitic," "hateful," "mass murderer." What is it you want from me?
Does he work inside the city limits of Toledo?
He hasn't been cited for working without a license there.
Holland, Ohio is right outside Toledo - I'm sure you can use Google or Yahoo maps.
QuoteDoes he work inside the city limits of Toledo?
Holland, Ohio is right outside Toledo - I'm sure you can use Google or Yahoo maps. It would be a fair guess that he does work in Toledo from time to time.QuoteHe hasn't been cited for working without a license there.
Probably because no one ever checked. Now, while he is making the media rounds lamenting his plight, he is whining that he is unable to work, possibly because now his boss and everyone else knows he is unlicensed.
So some have greatness thrust upon them, he cannot get plumbing work , but he can make a circuit of talkshows.
If I see Obama coming into my yard I will smile and say the Hatch act.
==============================================================
I somehow don't think you will be endangered by Obama coming into your yard. Or McCain either. Probably not even Bob Barr, Alan Keyes, or even Cynthia McKinney What are the odds?
Did no one tell him how dangerous it is to speak the truth to power?
QuoteDid no one tell him how dangerous it is to speak the truth to power?
And that truth was what? All I saw was that he asked a question, and got an answer. Just about every analysis I've seen of his situation shows he would come out ahead under Obama.
<<He needs to save up a lot and finally borrow even more to buy or produce a business worth a quarter million >>
This has got nothing to do with buying a business "worth a quarter million." The price of a business is usually based on a multiple of earnings. Depending on the type of business, the multiplier would be higher or lower, but three to five times annual earnings wouldn't be out of line for a plumbing business like the one Joe might be interested in. If the annual business earnings before interest and taxes are about $250K, the cost of acquisition, depending on many factors, would be at least twice that, probably more. I am over-simplifying because the bean-counters have much more refined formulae and there are also industry-specific factors to consider that I am leaving out of the equation for simplicity's sake.
Now even if Joe could scrape up or finance a price of a half-mill to a million, all he'd get in return would be a business earning about $250K annually and paying him a salary of considerably less. Obama's proposed tax hike for those earning a pre-tax $250K still wouldn't come close to him for at least a few years.
For a guy without a licence and unable to clear a $1600 lien off his property, Joe's "dream" of buying a business that will put his personal income within range of Obama's proposed hike is about on a par with Uncle Junior's dream of fucking Angie Dickinson. It is pure fantasy.
<<.I know a guy locally that has built a business about that size >>
Don't we all? The point is, really, HOW MANY guys like that do you know? And then: how many guys do you know who will bust their ass day in and day out and never come close to owning a business that will generate $250K in annual pre-tax income for them? What's the ratio? 100::1? More?
Obama didn't claim that his proposed tax increase won't bite anyone. His point is that MOST working Americans, an overwhelming majority of them, WILL NOT BE AFFECTED by the increase. Your example, if anything, tends to confirm that.
The value of a business is based on what it can earn in a year?
Also on what equipment it requires and owns.
=======================================================
A business is definitely valued by what it can earn. The liquidation value is secondary.
I hardly think that any bank is going to loan Joe, or anyone 80% of the cost of the business Joe wants to buy. A construction loan to build a house on land the lender owns outright usually does not amount to 80%.
==========================================================
we need these people , and we need not to hobble them.
I suggest what we need is not a Joe the Plumber that will buy out his boss, Bob the Plumber, but a Joe the Plumber that will start his own business, and while he is at it, find a cheaper, more efficient way to plumb a house or root out a drain or whatever.
Before Joe buys out Bob, we have a plumbing company with Bob in charge.
After he buys out Bob, we still have the same plumbing company with Joe in charge, and Bob retired in Florida or somewhere else far from leaky pipes and sewage. There is no net gain because Joe has bought out Bob.
Bob needs Joe , it is a part of his retirement plan.
This is why Bob can operate on a thin profit margin , reinvest a lot on his business and pay his loans off . He wants Joe to save and borrow enough to buy him out .If he could not do that, his retirement would require saveing a lot of cash , investing in a lot other than his business , failing to pay off his loans and getting out from under his business when it was time to retire allowing it to crash with his corporate debt.
A business is not worth more than any interested buyer can pay.
=====================================
First off, Bob (assuming there IS a Bob: we have heard nothing from Joe's employer, and probably never will) is not too bright if his strategy for retirement is to depend on just what he can sell his business for. Bob needs a much more diversified portfolio, because he could be sued, his company could be ruined by a building slump, or a dozen other events.
If Joe sees he cannot make it with the current tax rates, then Joe will offer less for the business, and so will all other intelligent buyers. Taxes are a part of doing business, just like the cost of rooter snakes, pipe dope and hard hats.
If I were a gambling man, which I am not, I would lay very good odds that Joe the Plumber is just a blowhard. We are witnessing the last few seconds of his fifteen minutes of fame. Soon he will join Willie Horton and the striving flag factory and the isles of Quemoy and Matsu-- the collective debris of useless campaign issues.
"...a business that can afford to pay its owner a pre-tax income of $250K or more. "
You're skipping from one point to another. I was addressing the issue of whether raising the tax on those who earn $250K a year would make any difference to the overall employment situation, and I demonstrated that it would not.
I think you also forgot the circumstances in which JFK was able to reduce taxes - - the U.S. in the wake of WWII was still swimming in unprecedented prosperity, with the biggest share of the world's export trade that it has ever enjoyed.
I was addressing the issue of whether raising the tax on those who earn $250K a year would make any difference to the overall employment situation, and I demonstrated that it would not.
You may have noticed, today times aren't so good. You've got a half-trillion dollar deficit and the costs of the Iraq war, although deferred, will have to be paid at some point, in the total sum of $3 trillion. Your balance-of-payments situation is pretty sick, you're a net borrower, not a net creditor . . . Must I go on?
I was addressing the issue of whether raising the tax on those who earn $250K a year would make any difference to the overall employment situation, and I demonstrated that it would not.
You haven't "demonstrated" anything; you stated an opinion as if it were fact.
You did the same thing when minimum wage increases were being debated a while back, and the facts are in on that - employment at the low end (where the minimum wage jobs are) is down. Even before the current financial meltdown.
<<Kennedy took over during a recession. >>
Yeah but "the fundamentals of the economy were strong."
The U.S. was in much better shape then than it is now. Balance of payments and trade, relative lack of foreign competition.
<<So when our economy is weaker it needs more taxation ?>>
No, when your treasury is approaching the "empty" mark it needs more money.
<<That seems like prescribeing leeches for anemia.>>
It's more like prescribing a transfusion to a guy who's lost 50% of his blood.
The U.S. was in much better shape then than it is now. Balance of payments and trade, relative lack of foreign competition.
The analysis is pathetically thin on facts.
ROTFLMFAO - - THIS from a supporter of the guy who blames Clinton for an attack which took place wholly on HIS watch.
By any standard of reasoning the attack took place on September 11, 2001, somewhere between Bush's inauguration and the last day of his first term. On his watch. When he and he alone could easily have prevented it. But did not.
The moon landing was an entirely plannable event.
You can't really argue with that.
Didn't Reagan get credit for the Iran hostages returning about ten seconds after he took the oath of orifice?