You know, the more I read the more I

[Xavier_Onassis]

A well-planned program could be of great benefit.

[sirs]

Like I said, glad you're on board

[Xavier_Onassis]

How, exactly, is my saying that the US needs to improve its image abroad going to accomplish this?

I wouldn't think anyone was "on board" unless they actually DO something.

[sirs]

On board is expecting the U.S. to get involved with any other country's education curriculum, by way of direct oversight if our tax dollars are bing used.  Like I said, glad you're aboard

and FYI, as Miss Henny has pointed out, we've "actually been doing something" for years

[Henny]

Because if there were, we'd see such attached to such an agenda.  Specifically to alleviate the concerns folks like myself have.  For those who have no problem with where our tax dollars go, so long as "the rich" and "Big *insert massive corporation here*" are the ones being taxed to pay for it, it doesn;t matter if there is or isn't any oversight.  I can thorougly understand why there wouldn't be, as it would be perceived as the U.S. meddling in another country's policies and education of their children.  I can even see the cries of propoganda be wailed by not just people in thos countries, but the hard core leftists right here.  Naaa, they'd prefer we send more $$$$, no strings attached, and then we hope and pray it's supposed to help

Could you alleviate my fears by linking me to the Omama site that provides the oversight and audits that are to be imposed prior to these billions more going overseas??

Sirs, I can't alleviate your fears; I'm not familiar with what Obama is proposing - I simply have knowledge that it's not a new idea, it is being done now, and there is oversight now.

And let me add that I am in total agreement with you that there has to be complete oversight no matter who has the idea or when it is put into place. But it seems unreasonable that a program will be continued and expanded by Obama with the specific intention to drop the oversight procedures.

But he also might be talking about expanding it into areas where it's never been before. There is a huge difference between putting an American school in Amman or Beirut versus putting one in the middle of Saudi Arabia. That would seriously require a lot MORE oversight than ever before.

With all due respect Miss Henny, the speed at which I would have been expecting changes have been ongoing for decades, specifically here.  More money, decreasing results.  MORE money, continually decreasing results.  Since the 60's, we've been increasing our education budgets, practically exponentially, while test scores continually decline.  So, let's flip the question.  When does one realize that simply adding more monies, while watching said programs continuously fail at their goals, connect?  How long do you wait and what's the ceiling of other people's money do you apply?

Apples and oranges. The education system throughout the Middle East generally stands on its own academically without need for outside help. What is being proposed and already done is more of an intervention of culture. If you have embittered adults teaching young children, clearly, there is a good chance that they will pass those ideas right on down generation after generation. The idea is to set an example for the kids, have them learn about American culture in a positive light instead of with negative overtones and thus help to shape the ideals of a new generation.

Miss Henny, I HOPE you're not of the camp that if I don't support X for the children, I must be against the children.  That tactic by both sides around here gets pretty sickening.  If you don't support this massive ineffectuai, bureaucratic, bloated, inefficient program for "the children", or for "the enviroment", or for whatever, that supposedly means you're anti-children, anti-enviorment, anti-whatever.  Yes, kids do learn, and I would hope that our monies aren't necessary to educate them that the U.S., isn't really all that bad.  That's literally trying to bribe them.  Show me some direct oversight on curriculum, including the efforts to truely demonize terrorist acts, then we can go from there

Sirs, quite seriously, I never meant to say or even imply such a thing. And I think you know me well enough - and for that matter I think I know YOU well enough - for the point to be moot. It's not my style.

[sirs]

Because if there were, we'd see such attached to such an agenda.  Specifically to alleviate the concerns folks like myself have.  For those who have no problem with where our tax dollars go, so long as "the rich" and "Big *insert massive corporation here*" are the ones being taxed to pay for it, it doesn't matter if there is or isn't any oversight ....Could you alleviate my fears by linking me to the Omama site that provides the oversight and audits that are to be imposed prior to these billions more going overseas??

Sirs, I can't alleviate your fears; I'm not familiar with what Obama is proposing - I simply have knowledge that it's not a new idea, it is being done now, and there is oversight now.

I've been privvy to the "its being done" part here in the U.S. for several decades now, and it's not getting better, as folks like Obama, continue to undermine any efforts, like impeding parent's choices who would cherish the chance to choose a better school to send their child to.  To think we'd have even better success in Arab countries with simply increasing those $$$$, is pretty hard to swallow, I'm afraid.  And without such alleviation of those fears, I'm not buying Obama's rhetoric, without some strict curiculum oversight and auditing.

And let me add that I am in total agreement with you that there has to be complete oversight no matter who has the idea or when it is put into place. But it seems unreasonable that a program will be continued and expanded by Obama with the specific intention to drop the oversight procedures.

I need to SEE it.  I need to SEE the oversight being performed.  I NEED to see the curiculums being placed on the children.  I NEED to see an overt effort to demonize terrorist activities and the killing of innocent civilians, including other CHILDREN.  But I'm sure heartened to see your support of the oversight needed   

But he also might be talking about expanding it into areas where it's never been before. There is a huge difference between putting an American school in Amman or Beirut versus putting one in the middle of Saudi Arabia. That would seriously require a lot MORE oversight than ever before.

agreed

The education system throughout the Middle East generally stands on its own academically without need for outside help. What is being proposed and already done is more of an intervention of culture. If you have embittered adults teaching young children, clearly, there is a good chance that they will pass those ideas right on down generation after generation. The idea is to set an example for the kids, have them learn about American culture in a positive light instead of with negative overtones and thus help to shape the ideals of a new generation.

That all sounds good, (most liberal ideas do) but I need to see specifically what's being proposed, besides the vague intention of simply sending billions more of our tax dollars over

Miss Henny, I HOPE you're not of the camp that if I don't support X for the children, I must be against the children.  That tactic by both sides around here gets pretty sickening.  If you don't support this massive ineffectuai, bureaucratic, bloated, inefficient program for "the children", or for "the enviroment", or for whatever, that supposedly means you're anti-children, anti-enviorment, anti-whatever.  Yes, kids do learn, and I would hope that our monies aren't necessary to educate them that the U.S., isn't really all that bad.  That's literally trying to bribe them.  Show me some direct oversight on curriculum, including the efforts to truely demonize terrorist acts, then we can go from there

Sirs, quite seriously, I never meant to say or even imply such a thing. And I think you know me well enough - and for that matter I think I know YOU well enough - for the point to be moot. It's not my style.

You're right it's not.  My apologies

[Xavier_Onassis]

The US will not and cannot introduce anything into the educational system of any country without the consent of the proper authorities of that country. I suppose it would be possible for some other country to get private and/or parochial schools to introduce favorable propaganda into their curricula in the US without the consent of the government: stories about brave Poles or Italians or Maltese or something like that. Maybe there is a similar opportunity for this in Middle Eastern countries, and of course, bribery in that part of the world is an integral part of the culture.

I have read that even in the most anti-American parts of the world, US University t-shirts and sweatshirts are popular. Baywatch was for a long time the favorite program in Iran, although I am sure it was not for intentional political statement. Unveiled women and men wearing practically nothing was and still is, a political statement in Iran.

We have never had any 'culture wars' of the intensity of those that have been going on in Iran for the past forty years or so.

[sirs]

The US will not and cannot introduce anything into the educational system of any country without the consent of the proper authorities of that country.

Then they don't get our billions more Obama pledges, until that point.  Simple as that

[Henny]

I've been privvy to the "its being done" part here in the U.S. for several decades now, and it's not getting better, as folks like Obama, continue to undermine any efforts, like impeding parent's choices who would cherish the chance to choose a better school to send their child to.  To think we'd have even better success in Arab countries with simply increasing those $$$$, is pretty hard to swallow, I'm afraid.  And without such alleviation of those fears, I'm not buying Obama's rhetoric, without some strict curiculum oversight and auditing.

But again, you're talking about improving actual education - how children learn. This has a completely different agenda. Further, programs that have been hung up in the U.S. have a much better chance of moving forward in the Middle East if only because they won't have so much red tape to cut through.

And based on your analysis of the situation, we should just give up on every effort the country makes if the results aren't immediate.

I need to SEE it.  I need to SEE the oversight being performed.  I NEED to see the curiculums being placed on the children.  I NEED to see an overt effort to demonize terrorist activities and the killing of innocent civilians, including other CHILDREN.  But I'm sure heartened to see your support of the oversight needed   

Sirs, how many times do I have to tell you that you're welcome to visit anytime??? 

That all sounds good, (most liberal ideas do) but I need to see specifically what's being proposed, besides the vague intention of simply sending billions more of our tax dollars over

Again, Sirs, these practices did not start with the liberals. Unless you are calling Bush a liberal, because he expanded the programs.

You're right it's not.  My apologies

Thank you Sirs. 

[Xavier_Onassis]

The US will not and cannot introduce anything into the educational system of any country without the consent of the proper authorities of that country.

Then they don't get our billions more Obama pledges, until that point.  Simple as that

===============================================================
So you are saying that foreign governments have no right of consent regarding their own educational systems?
The goal is to accomplish something, not just stand there on some principle that is unrelated to the problem or any possible solution.
If the US seeks to make education in Islamic countries more conducive to people not hating our guts, it is rather important to remember that this is being done for the sake of the US, not the recipient country. It is not pissing away tons of money as some sort of charity to the undeserving, which seems to be how you see it.

First, one must understand that education in many Islamic countries is perfectly awful and why this is so.
--------------------------------
The educational base of education in most Islamic countries is the Madrassah, which has as its objective the memorization of the Koran, and using that memorization to teach Arabic. Even if the Koran is the Holy Word of Allah himself, rote memorization is a terribly inefficient and inept way of teaching anything.

Virtually no one speaks Koranic Arabic, just as no one speaks Shakespearean English. Arabic today is not one single universally intelligible language. Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon and Dubai all claim to have Arabic as an official language, yet these people cannot understand one another well if they speak the usual local dialect, and some cannot understand others at all. Slovenes understand Poles better than Moroccans understand Emiris (that's what people from Dubai and the rest of the UAE call themselves). We say that Slovenes speak Slovenian and Poles speak Polish, so that explains why they don;t understand each other totally. But when Americans hear that Morocans and Lebanese both speak Arabic, we assume that they can understand each other. Ods are that an educated Moroccan and an educated Lebanese would likely converse in French than Arabic, because they would understand each other better. I have seen this happen among colleagues at my university.

So education in many Arabic nations is beyond awful. This is why so many Westerners are hired in the UAE to teach in the university and to prepare students to attend the university. It si also very hard to change, because it is, after all, based on Mohammad's declaration that the most important part of education is the rote memorization of the Koran in the original Arabic. Many see any change in the base of education as anti-Islamic.

The sort of education that the US could introduce would not be a part of the regular school curriculum, therefore, in most places. It would be most effective as an entirely voluntary and separate sort of education. Free, but appealing most to members of the better-educated elite, because that would make it as a step toward success in a rather immobile society.

[Henny]

The educational base of education in most Islamic countries is the Madrassah, which has as its objective the memorization of the Koran, and using that memorization to teach Arabic. Even if the Koran is the Holy Word of Allah himself, rote memorization is a terribly inefficient and inept way of teaching anything.

XO, that is completely untrue.

First, for the millionth time, Madrassa just means "school." My son attends a French Catholic Madrassa called E'cole de Enfant.

But fine, for the sake of how popular cultures has bastardized a perfectly common word in the language...

The educational base in most Islamic countries is NOT "Madrassa." It is highly prevalent in some extreme Islamic countries, but generally the sending of the child to this kind of school is a parent's choice if they are young - something along the lines of sending a young Catholic boy to the seminary at a young age. The "Madrassa" system of education is completely illegal in some other countries.

So education in many Arabic nations is beyond awful. This is why so many Westerners are hired in the UAE to teach in the university and to prepare students to attend the university. It si also very hard to change, because it is, after all, based on Mohammad's declaration that the most important part of education is the rote memorization of the Koran in the original Arabic. Many see any change in the base of education as anti-Islamic.

Again, untrue. In most cases, it is excellent. The major difference between systems is that Arabic countries tend to use the "Tawjihi" system, where the Americans are preparing their children for S.A.T.'s, the British are preparing their children for A-levels and some completely ignore all 3 methods and follow the IB Diploma Program.

In U.A.E., they are proactively inviting Western citizens into many facets of their culture, in an attempt to Westernize themselves. However, it isn't uncommon in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, Bahrain, etc., either. There tends to be an overall inferiority complex suffered by Arabs in regard to the West at large.

Now, when I am giving examples, I am specifically not addressing countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc., because they are the extremes. But the extremes do not come even close to representing even most of the Islamic world (and certainly not "many" Arabic countries, since only one of those examples is, after all, an Arab country).

[Xavier_Onassis]

Now, when I am giving examples, I am specifically not addressing countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc., because they are the extremes. But the extremes do not come even close to representing even most of the Islamic world (and certainly not "many" Arabic countries, since only one of those examples is, after all, an Arab country).

----------------------------------------------
Saudi Arabia, I suppose is what you mean by the one "Arab Country".

But the United ARAB Emirates, Qatar and also Arabic countries, and Egypt & Syria used to call themselves the United ARAB Republic. Jordan is officially the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and the Hashemites are an Arab people. I think Libya calls itself the Libyan ARAB Jamahurayyat. Not sure of the last word's spelling, but it means republic, i.e. no monarchy. I realize the term Arabic is linked to the religion, and is therefore not always used as precisely as the Germans use the word German or the Swedes use the word Swedish.


Most of the population of the Islamic world are countries that do have some sort of Koranic Madrassa tradition. Egypt and Pakistan have huge populations, and rote memorization is the essence of this system.

Jordan, the UAE and Kuwait were British satrapies for quite some time, and the Brits reformed their educational systems. I think Oman and the Eastern (Muscat) part of Yemen was also under British rule, but I dn;t think they got as heavy a dose of British reform.

My point was that the  traditional system that is used to teach a majority of Muslims was largely based in memorization in a language spoken by virtually none of the locals. That is a tremendous handicap.

Iran, being Shiite, has an entirely different educational tradition, which still retains some of the reforms made under the Shah.

Fields that are based on science and mathematics: engineering, medicine, and such are greatly stressed and much better organized than other fields. Morocco has developed a more Frenchified system, as has Tunisia, and to a degree, Algeria.

And again, US aid would have to be approved by someone in the education ministry of a country before it could be made part of the curriculum. I am pretty sure that anything would be carefully scrutinized for unwanted pro-Zionist viewpoints and "immoral" Western ideas, such as women's rights and such.

[sirs]

Then they don't get the extra billions of our tax dollars.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept

[Xavier_Onassis]

Then they don't get the extra billions of our tax dollars.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept

================================
It is a rigid concept. That is not always what works.

First, I doubt that "billions" of dollars were ever proposed here. Second, this is your concept of what should happen, not mine and certainly not the State Department's. The US spends less on foreign aid per capita than most, if not all, of the big eight economic powers, and a couple of dollars to teach a kid in some after school program is a lot cheaper than a robo-missile to shot him down with nine or ten years later.

[sirs]

Then they don't get the extra billions of our tax dollars.  Not sure why this is such a hard concept
================================
It is a rigid concept. That is not always what works....I doubt that "billions" of dollars were ever proposed here.

Try reading the initial post, taken from Obama's own web site --->  Barack Obama will establish a $2 billion Global Education Fund to work to eliminate the global education deficit and offer an alternative to extremist schools