And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks

[Henny]

In the case of the Palestinians, was the uprooting done by the British and then the UN or was it done after the fact by the Israeli's or was it perhaps both.

All of the above in different stages.

Perhaps the solution is the creation of a Palestinian state made up of territory from Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. Did i leave out any adjoining states?

That is a new and very interesting idea... although it would certainly be an peculiar circular shape, ringing Israel. LOL.

[Henny]

Experts work to open secret Nazi archive for research
By The Associated Press
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=826648&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Technical experts have completed a blueprint to make millions of Nazi documents stored in Germany accessible to Holocaust researchers, but the 11 nations overseeing the massive archive must give the green light, the archive director said Thursday.

The outline approved at a three-day meeting in Bad Arolsen, Germany, for transferring huge amounts of data was a critical step toward opening the long-secret files maintained by the International Tracing Service, an arm of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Holocaust survivors and researchers have waited decades to see information buried in the gray metal cabinets and on shelves in six nondescript buildings in the small German spa town. Many are yellowed and fragile with age.
 
Among the records meticulously kept by the Nazis are transport documents and death lists, and notes on concentration camp inmates ranging from their hereditary diseases to the number of lice plucked from their heads.

After years of wrangling, the 11-nation oversight body voted last May to amend the 1955 agreement governing the archive to give access to researchers and permit electronic copies.

But each nation must ratify that decision before it comes into force, which could take years. Survivors say they may long be dead by the time that happens.

The member countries are due to meet again in May, when the U.S. and other delegations are expected to propose shortcuts that could open the archive almost immediately.

The task to scan and digitize 30 million sheets of paper was a huge technical and logistic challenge, said Uwe Ossenberg, an expert quoted in a statement from the Tracing Service. He said he knew of no similar project anywhere in Europe or the United States.

[_JS]

What you're providing our examples of hard life, and yea, unfair foreign policy practicies, at the hands of Israel.  Perhaps if Israel weren't surrounded by nations and peoples intent on seeing it destroyed, as soon as it came into existance, I'd be far more sympathetic to your position.

I have to say, Sirs, you and Domer are both surprising me very much.

Look at the above response by Sirs. "[E]xamples of hard life." So as long as Israel doesn't employ actual gas chambers their policies are acceptable because they fall under what you both deem as "safety and security." What you both fail to see is that South Africa made those exact same claims about the black Africans. Ian Smith made the exact same claims about the black Rhodesians. Suharto made the exact same claims about the Timorese. None of those three nations used gas chambers and efficient methods of genocide, but they used the same tired excuse - "safety and security."

And yes Sirs, Southern Rhodesia was threatened by nearly all of her neighbors. So there's another example to put in your book. And they did suffer from terrorism, including the shooting down of a passenger airplane. Throw that in. Does that still make Ian Smith's regime and their actions right?

Moreover, your understanding of the situation in the Middle East is poor. Israel is not surrounded by nations who are "intent on seeing it destroyed." This isn't 1948. Egypt is the only nation in the region with a military capable of inflicting any harm on the Israelis. And the onlty reason for that is because they use our equipment that we sell to them. Egypt has been at peace with israel since the Camp David Accords and any signs of any trouble and you know the United States would stop aiding the Egyptian military.

Syria does not have the military capability to harm Israel. They have outdated Soviet equipment and unless the Saudis purchase them some new stuff I don't think there is much to worry about. Jordan has an even weaker military and a huge border with Israel. It would be akin to Mexico invading the United States. Not going to happen. The only way Israel is going to screw up is do what they did in Lebanon and pull a United States style SNAFU. Like our military, they are built to fight another military and not a prolonged guerilla war. If they stay out of invasions of Arab or Lebanese nations, their survival is not even a question.

He understandibly believed many Palestinians are terrorists, which many are.

That is a blatant lie.

Then, you should factor in the Holocaust on the morality of the entire episode.

But it is interesting that you never factor it in Domer. Why do a people so devestated by a complete lack of human rights (or humane treatment) then have a Government who has such a complete lack of concern for human rights?

By the way not every Israeli agrees with the Government or IDF actions, just as Sirs statement that "many Palestinians are terrorists" is bullshit.

[BT]

That is a new and very interesting idea... although it would certainly be an peculiar circular shape, ringing Israel. LOL.

They are pretty much surrounded anyway.

Of course along with the agreement to create a palestinian state would come a UN guarantee of protection for both Israel and Palestine.

[sirs]

What you're providing our examples of hard life, and yea, unfair foreign policy practicies, at the hands of Israel.  Perhaps if Israel weren't surrounded by nations and peoples intent on seeing it destroyed, as soon as it came into existance, I'd be far more sympathetic to your position.

Look at the above response by Sirs. "[E]xamples of hard life." So as long as Israel doesn't employ actual gas chambers their policies are acceptable because they fall under what you both deem as "safety and security."

Apparently you missed the part where I've conceded unfair foreign policy practices, on the part of Israel.  Many of them leading to the hard life the Palestinians endure.  Perhaps you missed the part where most of the rhetoric Miss Henny provided demonstrates no mindset that Palestinans be wiped off the map.  Perhaps you also missed the part where no other Arab country has lifted a finger to allow Palestinians to come to their region, such as Jordan.  Perhaps you also missed the part where the majority of Israel's neighbors have publically pledged to see Israel cease to exist. 

Naaaa, Israel = bad, simple as that.  What you fail to see is the reality of history, here appearing to repeat itself.  So, when you can convince me that Israel no longer is threatened for its very existance, that the Arab nations now will accept the state of Israel, right where it is, no ifs &'s, or buts, then I'll be right with you on condemning what you perceive as racist policies.

1st things, 1st though

He understandibly believed many Palestinians are terrorists, which many are.

That is a blatant lie.

No, it's referencing that many Homicide bombers are indeed Palestinian.  He was simply using some over-the top rhetoric, since to Barack it seemed like every homicide bomber was a Palestinian.  Not a lie at all, just a distortion

[_JS]

Apparently you missed the part where I've conceded unfair foreign policy practices, on the part of Israel.  Many of them leading to the hard life the Palestinians endure.

No I saw that. It is quite like the South African whites who saw what was happening to the black Africans and said, "oh, that isn't right" then went and lived in their nice homes and neighbourhoods, insulated from the very real and terrible things they were doing to the black Africans to live that life. I see that same attitude in you and Domer. All I see is a hard life for Palestinians, right? They need to die, live in terrible poverty, have their homes destroyed so some Israelis can live a good life. Nope Sirs, I didn't miss it at all.

Perhaps you missed the part where most of the rhetoric Miss Henny provided demonstrates no mindset that Palestinans be wiped off the map.

So? That makes your attitude above somehow acceptable? As I said, just because there aren't gas chambers, doesn't mean there isn't a crime against humanity.

Perhaps you also missed the part where no other Arab country has lifted a finger to allow Palestinians to come to their region, such as Jordan.

If you had paid attention, Jordan does have many Palestinians living within its territory. And why does that make Israel's behavior somehow acceptable? They lived in Palestine. Why are you blaming neighboring countries? Did Jordan go in and destroy entire Palestinian villages? No. Does Jordan have roads that only allow a specific race to drive upon them? No. Nice strawman.

Perhaps you also missed the part where the majority of Israel's neighbors have publically pledged to see Israel cease to exist.

You keep making this statement and it is a lie. Let's clear this up now, because it seems to be a crux of your argument.

Egypt full recognizes Israel and has a peace agreement (1979).
Jordan recognizes Israel and has a peace agreement (1994).
The PLO recognizes Israel and has a peace agreement. (1993)

So the only neighbor that doesn't have a peace agreement is Syria, who has an armistice agreement and a small territorial dispute. Lebanon has been in chaos anyway and needs a stable government to organise a peace agreement, but considering the Israelis invaded it - that won't be happening soon.

So who are these "neighbors" of whom you speak?

What you fail to see is the reality of history, here appearing to repeat itself.

I don't need a lesson in history from someone who quite honestly has no grasp of history anyway. What I see are people in the United States who support a nation who employs very nasty tactics that you would never support anywhere else. You support it for any combination of the following reasons:

1. You have no understanding of the region and its history and culture.

2. There are some bizarre evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant echatological reasons for supporting Israel no matter how the Government there acts.

3. Simple and blatant bigotry towards Arabs and/or Islam, without even realising that Palestinians also include Christians and many of the apartheid policies are placed upon Christians as well.

4. Allowing the historical travesty of the Holocaust to permit the Israeli Government to have a free pass from now until...who knows?

5. Belief that America's interests in the Middle East rely on Israel and therefore it doesn't matter how Israel acts (i.e. pure Cold War foreign policy - Israel = American military base).

No, it's referencing that many Homicide bombers are indeed Palestinian.

I wasn't responding to what he said, but you're excusing him for it. The suicide bombers are Palestinian because it is their method of fighting back for their land.

[Henny]

Perhaps you missed the part where most of the rhetoric Miss Henny provided demonstrates no mindset that Palestinans be wiped off the map.  Perhaps you also missed the part where no other Arab country has lifted a finger to allow Palestinians to come to their region, such as Jordan. 

Wrong and wrong.

I saw those quotes as saying very clearly that they wanted them off the map. There were a FEW that didn't say that, but most did. I'm sorry I didn't have recent quotes from Olmert to add to the list so that it can't be dismissed as history.

Second, all other Arab countries have helped the Palestinians. The difference is, only Jordan has given them citizenship; the rest have given them refugee documents, but have not turned their backs on them.

[sirs]

Perhaps you missed the part where most of the rhetoric Miss Henny provided demonstrates no mindset that Palestinans be wiped off the map.  Perhaps you also missed the part where no other Arab country has lifted a finger to allow Palestinians to come to their region, such as Jordan. 

Wrong and wrong.   I saw those quotes as saying very clearly that they wanted them off the map. There were a FEW that didn't say that, but most did. I'm sorry I didn't have recent quotes from Olmert to add to the list so that it can't be dismissed as history.

4, perhaps 5 of the 11 could be construed as "pushing them out".  Only 2 of those could be rationally seen as wanting them to cease to exist.  Yes, I did read them

Second, all other Arab countries have helped the Palestinians. The difference is, only Jordan has given them citizenship; the rest have given them refugee documents, but have not turned their backs on them.

It sure seems they have, since I recall reading how many of those same countries refuse to allow Palestinians from settling in their territories.  It seems the ONLY place they can stay just happens to be ths same place Israel is located     

[Henny]

It sure seems they have, since I recall reading how many of those same countries refuse to allow Palestinians from settling in their territories.  It seems the ONLY place they can stay just happens to be ths same place Israel is located     

No, that is not so. However, the other Arab countries take the stricter policies because they want to encourage the right of return.

[sirs]

It sure seems they have, since I recall reading how many of those same countries refuse to allow Palestinians from settling in their territories.  It seems the ONLY place they can stay just happens to be ths same place Israel is located   

No, that is not so. However, the other Arab countries take the stricter policies because they want to encourage the right of return.

Well, that's 1 enterpretation     

[domer]

Either gripped by the power of his new-found Catholicism or deluded into righteousness by his pseudo-intellectualism, JS persists in his misapprehension of the Israeli-Palestinian problem. I scoff at his comparisons. In fact the Holocaust and the events in its wake are unique in the history of mankind, fully understood, and should not be trivialized. While I don't have close enough knowledge to bespeak what position I would take on particular Israeli policies, some of which I deplore, I can however see the larger picture of the absolutely essential nature of security in the life of the Israeli nation. Further, the morality of the settlement of "Israel" cannot be understood without a full comprehension of the history leading up to it. While the maelstrom of 1947-1949 may reveal bona fides to some degree, the historical backdrop against which those events are assessed provides little succor for the Palestinians. Denying in the strongest terms possible that the Jewish resurgence in Palestine can rightly be called a war of aggression, the latter means of ascent is a "storied" avenue to nationhood. Just ask any American Indian.

[Plane]

    If the Original settlement of Israel had been more freindly , with this great number of Jews being welcomed as though long lost cousins , and settleing peacefully in without driveing off the Arabs already in place , I suppose there would be room enough for all of the people involved as good neighbors with no high walls.


     Too late now to wish it had been diffrent then.

     What could be changed , whether rapidly or slowly , to make the people involved into good neighbors? 

      Do generations have to pass so the crimes large and small can be forgotten and forgiven before trust is possible?

[yellow_crane]

I refuse to hear the word "Jewish" and move to Pavlovian wallowing.

Any more. 

I doubt that there is anyone here or near who has out-championed my efforts re: the plight of the Jews.

But it would be amiss to watch Sharon and judge him by Nuremburg standards, since the actions of Sharon cannot be regarded as healthily tied to any subsequent appropriate resolvement of their holocaust in moral and spiritual terms.   

Suggesting that fascist ruthlessness is the lesson to have been learned by the victims of the holocaust rings of high bogusity. 

If Israel's current actions are supported by Judaism, then Judaism and what it must have become must be deemed suspect when viewed with the moral lens. 

If Jews coast to coast in American have shorn themselves of a more proper claim to a noble emergence from their great tragedy and are now united, admittedly nervously, behind a new, truly fascist beast, then they must also eventually resolve why they have found themselves standing alone in a marked herd, this time not innocently assembled. 

The moral issue of Israel is a large one, and is more complex than a simple call to chorused, sustained lamentation at the drop of every hat;  the moral issue of Israel is a moving issue, and is defined as the river defines and redefines itself. 

Sharon, I suggest, and all current attendant fascist Jewish intent by all of Israel everywhere, is the very nadir of its spiritual journey, its nations journey. 

It is one thing to be victim, and entirely another thing to become the beast.

Following Sharon, Israel is losing its moral war.


Israel is ruthless now, and pretends its every attrocious action is one of retribution, and has turned into that which it stands behind as its defining character identification:  it is no exaggeration to see their tactics, comportment and intent as anything than fascist.

If you note Domer's position, it is simply a repairment to the sacred shrouds of high sentiment; he keeps reminding us that it is highly significant to the behavior of Israel in the Middle East, and that we should know this at once at high moral tide, in a high mind resonance, without question.  It would be rude, he suggests, to look about during the funeral.  It escapes him that the funeral is open-ended.

When other people attempt to question whether or not the matter should end entirely with unanimously  compliant emotional indulgence, he scoffs, never looking for comps at the Western Hemisphere when Europe conducted a much larger genocide for a couple hundred years before Dauchau.  I suggest reading 500 Nations, and other emerging books giving a much more candid assessment of the European (read White) handlings of North and South American natives.  Giving purposely poxed blankets to women and children was a cold, directed, bottom-line decision, and equals any SS moral depravity.

Domer is verklempt while Rome burns.

Since the irony of the Gods who enjoy punitive nugdging and poking has never really gone, but has only been replaced by the bringing in the sheep, Domer may well end up, coincidentally, as if on his way to Damascus, under Sharon's fascist heel.  God knows what I mean if Domer doesn't.

 






 

[Xavier_Onassis]

In the case of the Palestinians, was the uprooting done by the British and then the UN or was it done after the fact by the Israeli's or was it perhaps both.

All of the above in different stages.

==========================================
The UN never had jurisdiction in Palisrael, so it did not uproot anyone. Tye UN boundaries dividing Palestine gave quite a bit more territory to the Palestinians than they ended up with after the war that followed the UN mandate. The neighboring Arab states (Egypt, Jordan, Syria) promised to help the Palestinians keep their land, but they were pretty incompetent as soldiers and lost horribly to the Israelis, who were better armed and organized.

The Brits often, but not always, favored the Jews over the Arabs. The Israelis did all they could to remove Palestinians from their land or to cause them to flee. After they fled, they were banned from returning.

[sirs]

The Israelis did all they could to remove Palestinians from their land or to cause them to flee. After they fled, they were banned from returning.

Pretty much pure hyperbole there, but whatever makes you feel better, Xo