DebateGate

So you agree, and you say it's obvious, and then you tell me it is an incorrect conclusion.
How can I argue with someone using such brilliant logic.

It is obvious to me that what they did was meant to send a message, but I have not talked with the criminals,
nor have they stated their positions as far as I know.

On the 2nd part I meant to write "it may be an incorrect conclusion" because in fact it may be.
We don't know yet.

I believe the question was would I be surprised if the KKK killed an African-American. And the answer to that question is still, yes, I probably would

So are you saying you would not be surprised if the  Klu Klux Klan attacked an African American, but you would be surprised if that attack led to the death of the African American?

Can I ask why you would be surprised if a Klu Klux Klan attack led to the death of an African American especially after the long history of Klan violence towards African Americans?

Said the man who is objecting to folk suggesting his initial post in this thread looks like an excuse.

Objecting?
I am not objecting, I am flat out telling you that you are wrong, which is a fact, because I know what my words mean and intentions are and the only thing you can do is ASSume what they are.

Um, no. First of all, no one is trying to control the point you were making.

Yes you are and you continue to try to do that in this very part of the thread.

Other people were merely making their own points. Not sure why you find that threatening.

Threatening?
Oh my I am sooooooo threatened.

I'm sure you'll tell me don't but then I'd just have to ask why then did you bother to say I cannot control what your point was supposed to be?

Uh because you obviously think you can dictate as to what the proper manner is to respond to Henny's post or you begin making ASSumptions about people because you leap to conclusions that have no basis in fact except you don't approve of their choice of what points to make first. You seem to demand "condemnation first" or else.

Second, I didn't demonize anyone in this thread.

No you just basically say I "excuse criminal behavior".

All I did was point out that the impression that you were excusing rather than condemning the vandalism is not unreasonable.

I think it is unreasonable, and it is by people that want to demonize people that don't follow their "approved way" of responding in politically correct ways.

I think Henny is probably fine with non-standard responses about Islam. But I don't see your response as non-standard, and no one said you had to like Islam. I believe the objection to your initial post had to do with the lack of a condemnation of the vandalism and the appearance of a justification.

Yes, there it is again.
An objection that my point should be "condemnation" or there is objection.
"Follow the rules or be condemned you bigot"!
One can't first say "it's no surprise".
No thats not following the rules of political correctness.

You know, you could have made the point about not be surprised and condemned the vandalism in the same post. That really would have been okay.

See again, and again, there it is.
The need to "do it this way".
No you should not point out just that it is no surprise without condemnation.
My first thought was "whats the surprise?" So thats what I wrote. And thats what I stand by 100%.

I did not mention the September 11, 2001, attack.

I never said you did. I brought it up as a way to answer your question, which it did very well.
And you did mention a "a terrorist attack that killed some Americans".
But it really does not matter logic wise whether it's "Sept 11" or "a terrorist attack that killed some Americans" the logic is the same.

My question was not about what would or did other people say. My question was not about what would or did other people say. My question was what would you think.

I know it was and I answered it:
"Would you see that reply and think the person was not excusing the terrorist attack?"
ANSWER: Uh no. I would not at all think that

I'm a little skeptical of your open-mindedness given what I've seen of your rhetoric in other posts. But maybe I'm wrong.

You are.

Though lumping Ron Paul in with Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan doesn't help your case, imo.

Why not? Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, and Ron Paul have all made statements about past American foreign policy
being an issue as to why attacks against Americans happen here and abroad.

You complain a lot about other people making assumptions about you, yet you seem to have no shortage of your own assumptions about others. I have not ever tried and am not now trying to dictate anything to you.

See above.

I'm merely pointing out the rather obvious reasons why someone might have read your post and perceived that you were making excuse.

Sure if they have an agenda of how someone should respond and if they want to assume the worst about that person because that person wished to make a different point about the intial post that they think should not be made.

I am calling Henny a bigot because when Henny called/implied I was a bigot by reading my response that she disapproved of she
exposed herself as a bigot in this instance.

Um, no. What she did was reveal was that she disliked what she perceived, however wrongly, to be your point.

Yes very "wrongly".

A perception that was, contrary to your protestations, neither unreasonable nor bigoted.

I can agree to disagree.

Seems to me you're the one doing all the assuming. Or maybe you're just naive enough to think that anyone not agreeing with you is a bigot.

No that describes Henny and why I think she is a bigot in this thread.
I suppose we all have a varying degree of bigotry, so I am using the term in a general way.
I do not know Henny, so I certainly can not say with any authority as to whether this may have been nothing more than a one time bigoted remark. I will take your conclusion to heart that Henny does not normally make bigoted statements.

In all of my conversations with Henny, and in what I have seen of her other comments in various threads, Henny has never proven herself to be a hateful or intolerant person. That she disagreed with what she perceived to be your point does not make her a bigot.

I already said that. What makes Henny a bigot in this thread is to call/imply I am a bigot because Henny did not like my point and thought ONLY a point of condemnation should be acceptable as an intial reaction to the post about vandalism.

Seems to me, you're the one showing the intolerance.

No I am only responding to intolerance.
Intolerance of what is an acceptable point to make to the Henny intial post and then being called a bigot for not following "protocol".

I'm as least as funny as you,

Well I hope so.
You appear to me as being funny in the sense of the personality that comes through your writing.
I am joking but would I be wrong to asssume funny, well read, very organized, are your desk drawers meticulously organized?

who seem to think you know all of my intentions and when I'm assuming rather than arriving at conclusions based on the evidence at hand. You seem to believe you know how I think.

Hardly. How could that be when I don't even know you?
I think I can see patterns from your writings, but "know how you think"?
Come on.

Why should you get to do all the pigeonholing?

Uh?

I did not claim it did.

Yes you did. You basically said that "typing in all caps" was evidence that I was offended.
Remember?: "Typing in all caps, repeating yourself, but you're not offended? Sure."

All caps is, however, often considered "yelling" in an online forum.

Often is not always and you are wrong once again because I am not offended.
I know you and I seem to end up playing sematics, but really I am not offended.
Actually I am not one to be easily offended. Maybe 10-15 years ago, but not anymore.

I don't recall saying anything was an absolute shock.

Ok, but it seemed your were "very surprised" but I won't play semantics right now.

I did not realize acknowledging the the difference between absolute shock and surprise was semantics.

It is, but hardly worth spending time disecting.

It means I distrust some organizations.

Ok, but what relevance does that have at that juncture of this thread?
And by the way are there people that trust all organizations?

Now you want to play semantics?

No I wanted an answer?

She started it? That's your excuse?

No thats not my excuse, it is a staement of fact.

So you're equating disagreement with pigeonholing?

No disgareement is fine, trying to demonize someone because they have a different point to make about a post and don't include a condemnation in their repsonse so they ASSume the worst about that person is pigeonholing out of ignorance.

I can see conversations with you are going to be very tricky.

When people imply I am a bigot, and/or lie/mis-charecterize my values, yes it can be and will be "tricky".
BTW, speaking of conversations being "tricky", do you find youself uttering that a bit ironic?

I disagree, but your criticism is not entirely unfair

Yep.

I should have said you appeared to have basically excused the vandalism.

And that would have been wrong too.

I believe I said I would be surprised to see that a Klan member had killed an African-American

Sorry, honestly I find that is not credible or believable.

Let's put it this way: I know that cancer exists and happens to millions of people every year, but I'd still be surprised if I or
someone I know was diagnosed with it.

Yes but that is not a correct analogy.
Bringing it down to your own tightknit circle is not a fair analogy.
I doubt you are surprised "people get cancer".
I did not say "would you be surprised if an African American family member of yours or an African American you know" was killed by the Klu Klux Klan. Yes we are surprised when a friend gets cancer, but we are not surpised to hear people get cancer.

It's late, it's been fun, you are an interesting person to exchange ideas with, have a good weekend.


 

Yes, I am surprised. I am surprised that people who might be upset about terrorism would think
vandalism of a school would be an appropriate response.

Anger and reprisal is not an uncommon human response.
If Catholics in the name of their religion were bombing and maiming people all over the world on a daily basis
and targeting civilians in attacks across the globe, targeting school children in Russia, blowing up airplanes full
of innocent civilians, blowing up commuter trains full of innocent civilians, sawing off people's heads, ect x 100
I would expect some reprisals against Catholic institutions and would certainly not be surprised if that happened.

Apparently the people who did the vandalizing thought it was appropriate.
Yes obviously so.
They think it will send a message.
It is the wrong approach and the criminal behavior should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

And no, that is not an assumption, that is a conclusion based on the evidence.
Yes it is an assumption and it is also an incorrect conclusion.

And didn't your question of "arer you surprised" apply to the vandalism?

Yes and I stand by that staement 100%.
Who could be surprised that a Muslim Mosque might be attacked?
Do you not think that real possibility has ever been discussed that it would happen?
Put aside your pride for a moment to win an argument and honestly say you
think that authorities are "surprised" this happened? No one with any knowledge
of the current level of violence coming from the Muslim world could logically be "surprised"
that anger would build enough to cause something like this to happen. One of my best friends who is Muslim
is very concerned what might happen to him and his family if the radical Muslims are successful in a catastrophic
attack against an American city they keep promising will happen. He is scared the repercussions could be very
bad for his family. And I asssure you he is not talking about school vandalism.

Considering you're someone who says things like "ASSuming" and "ASSumption", you really shouldn't be assuming
you know what my reaction would be.

Can you not come up with your own ideas? 
Assuming the KKK would attack an African American is certainly no leap of faith assumption,
but like I said, since you won't even admit the obvious, I am not sure why I continue discussing
with such disingenuity, but I suppose it's good practice and somewhat enjoyable to a point.

First of all, I probably would be surprised

You would be surprised if the Klu Klux Klan attacked an African American?
Ummmm I am not sure this is discusssion is even worth continuing if you will not admit the obvious.

The point is you said it wasn't surprising and proceeded not to condemn the vandalism but to post numbers about attacks and people killed by Islamic terrorists.

No you are the one missing the point.
You can not control the point I was making or decide what my point should be because you think thats what the point should be.
My point is my point to make, not yours.
But because I choose to make a point about a post you don't agree with you prefer to try to demonize me.

My point was not to condemn the vandalism, but to point out that it was not a surprise the level of anger at worldwide violence from the Muslim world has risen to this point. And as stated before, in my opinion it is going to get much, much worse. If we have a major attack on US cities with chemical weapons or WMD's school vandalisms are going to look like "the good old days". It could get very, very ugly and a situation the authorities may not be able to control very similar but much much worse than the Rodeny King LA Riots.

You're surprised that someone thought that looks like a justification?

I have already basically stated I am never surprised by what I read on message boards.
And of course I am not surprised when people object to "politically incorrect" or non-standard approved responses about the "Religion of Peace".

No, it's not an assumption.
Yes it is and again it is a wrong assumption.

Now it's my turn to ask you a question.
Oh goody. I hope the fans in the outfield are wearing their mits.

Let's say someone posted an article about a terrorist attack that killed some Americans (God forbid), and then in response to that article someone said merely, "Are you surprised?" and then, without any further comment or condemnation of the terrorists, posted some statistics about deaths related to American foreign policy in the Middle East.

Thats funny, because thats exactly what many on the Left did and still do.
I believe BaBa Streisand's husband said on a radio show on 9/11: "Happy 9/11 Day"
Maybe I should haave said "Happy Vandalism Day"?
Now that you could do you ASSuming on.

Would you see that reply and think the person was not excusing the terrorist attack?

Uh no. I would not at all think that. Many on the Left basically said that exact same thing
but I don't think they were "excusing" the Sept 11 attack. They were upset the act happened
and think Bin Laden should be prosecuted.

Would you think the reply was from someone who thought the terrorists should be punished?

Well I can't speak for the entire planet, but because some on the Left thought past American foriegn
policy may have played a factor in the Sept 11th attack would by no means mean they
did not think the Sept 11 planners should not be brought to justice. Are you saying all those on the
Left that think past american foreign policy played a role in bringing about Sept 11 think the planners
of Sept 11 should not be punished? I don't think that is true at all. I think even Michael Moore, Ron Paul,
and Cindy Sheehan would condemn the Sept 11 attack and think the perpetrators should be brought to justice.

Yes, but that sentiment was noticeably lacking in your initial post.

Because as I stated earlier that was not the point I wanted to make.
You keep trying to dictate what my point "should have been" but you don't control the points I choose to make.

You're calling Henny a bigot because she didn't see you condemn the vandalism in your initial post?

No, no, no.  I am calling Henny a bigot because when Henny called/implied I was a bigot by reading my response that she disapproved of she exposed herself as a bigot.

Seems to me you're the one doing all the assuming. Or maybe you're just naive enough to think that anyone not agreeing with you is a bigot.

No that describes Henny and why I think she is a bigot.

Typing in all caps, repeating yourself, but you're not offended? Sure.

Oh so now you know when I am offended and I don't?
You know me better than I do?
You're funny.
Since when does "all caps" = offended?
Can you source that definition of "all caps" please?
I sometimes use all caps for emphasis.
Sorry I can't be pigeon-holed in writing style either.

To see anger reaching a level of stupidity? Hm. I suppose you're right. It does so frequently.

Ok finally, finally, finally. Let there be light.

Yet, I still find myself surprised that people would do this, as your initial post and the above quote seem to imply, as a response to terrorist actions. Maybe I just have too much faith that people ought to know better.

I don't recall saying anything was an absolute shock.

Ok, but it seemed your were "very surprised" but I won't play semantics right now.

I may distrust some organizations,

what does this mean at this particular junction if this conversation?

but I tend to be surprised when I see evidence of individuals doing something that seems, as in this case, not only hateful but stupid.

Honestly, I do not understand how you could be "surprised" in today's world when we see in across the board in every facet of life every single day in the news.  But I''l take your word for it.

I guess I'm just not the sort to expect that of people. I've never gotten used to it. To be quite honest, I think I do not want to get used to it. I certainly don't want to come to expect it.

All very true.


True, but not being surprised and posting numbers about terrorist attacks doesn't exactly equal a condemnation of the vandalism.

Again condemnation was not the point I chose or intended to make at that point.

That's kinda funny coming from someone who has declared Henny a bigot

ONLY, after Henny said/implied I was one.

and who decided he can tell me how I will answer his questions.

Questions?
Was there more than one?
Refresh my memory.

Perhaps you should consider that you don't know enough about Henny or me to make the assumptions you're apparently making.

Remeber she called me/implied I was bigot first, so maybe Henny should follow your advice.
According to your logic, she does not know enough about me to assume I am a bigot
When she did that without knowing my intent, without knowing condemnation was not the point I was making, it became obvious
that Heny was "intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own".

Or is it okay for you to assume you know other people even though you can't read their intent or what their heart feels any better than they can read yours? Okay for thee but not for me?

Again Henny used the term bigotry towards me first, so maybe you ask Henny those questions.

I'm not pigeonholing anyone.

In my opinion yes you are because I have a point to make that is different from what you think the first response to a post should be you want to "pigeon hole" me as someone that supports vandalism against Muslims and that I condone such criminal behavior when you have no credible evidence to support such implications.

I'm also not lying

When you say "You've basically excused the vandalism" you are indeed lying or greatly mischaracterizing someone you
do not even know because that is not at all what I have done. Plus in my opinion you are lying or out of touch with reality
when you respond and basically say you would be surprised to see violence from a Klu Klux Klan member against an African American.

However, I am having doubts about whether or not you're doing any of that.

Doubting Thomas had his good points.
 
 

Iraq Violence Lowest Since 2006

Lieutenant General Ray Odierno, MNF-I #2 commander, reported that Iraq violence is at its lowest level since the February 2006 al-Askaria mosque bombing by al-Qaeda that touched off the wave of sectarian violence al-Qaeda desired. Lt. Gen. Odierno pointed to Baghdad specifically, where attacks have ?dropped about 50 percent since January, and the number of civilian casualties also has fallen.?

[source: e-mail]

"OK. But what about the White Power graffiti?"

what about it?
still more pigeon hole bigotry?
implying by the question that since my views dont agree with you i must be a racist?
if you are asking my opinion
i think it's dumb just like pronouncements of "Black Power"
the perpetrators should be prosecuted and punished.
it's amazing and sad some people still think race should matter
race should not be a factor, only excellence
i don't think a white should be placed as the starting running back to make a team more "balanced"
nor do I think a black should be placed as bank president so that the executive staff is more "balanced"
the deciding factor should be performance excellence.

"Let me put it another way. When you read about the Jena 6, do you go looking for statistics about blacks, post them and then say you weren't surprised about the events in that town? (Including the events leading up to the fight and charges against the boys.)"

well henny to be honest actually yes, if large groups of people appeared to be in denial that there was a serious racial problem
after an attack then yes i may point out instances of race violence as a potential cause factor to an incident. in the Jena 6 incident
I would presume most americans are keenly already aware of serious racial problems and are not surprised by violence that is race related.
we have had a long time for the race thing to sink in, with radical islam the education is still early and still ongoing.

If I wasn't I am now - surprised that you find this type of bigotry justified in the U.S

Well I find YOUR BIGOTRY surprising.

Can you please show me where I say it is "justified"?

Or in your own bigotry and your need to rush to pigeon hole people in conclusions do you alwasy just lie about people?

I was not surprised that cops beat the hell out of Rodney King after what he did, but it certainly was not justified.

I certainly do not condone vandalizing any school.

But does it surpise me? Absolutely not after seeing the daily horror and carnage Muslims in the name of their religion are carrying out on a daily basis all over the world unlike any other religion in todays world.

People read headlines day after day after day after day after day and they react.
Muslim School Vandalized Surpising? No
Justified: NO

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=633_1190309981