Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...

[Michael Tee]

Which probably depends on how much sugar the GI's had access to.

[Amianthus]

That was hardly a combat operation.

"Even" kinda implies that it wasn't the only thing they did, doesn't it?

[crocat]

<<In the Vietnam War, U.S. officials emphasized the Communist insurgents' campaigns of kidnapping and assassination, but downplayed atrocities of their Saigon allies.>>

Sure.  The "Saigon allies" committed atrocities.  God-damn Saigon allies.  I guess the writer thinks it was "Saigon allies" who tossed live prisoners out of helicopters, "rang up" bound and helpless prisoners by hooking their genitals and anuses to field telephone generators, used K-bar knives to skin prisoners alive and put white phosphorus in the vaginas of captured female VC.  Evidently this jerk-off has YOU fooled, Cro, but that doesn't mean he fooled everyone.

<< U.S. Army suppression of reports of American participation in the My Lai Massacre . . . >>

"Reports" of "participation" - - well put, thou mealy-mouthed apologist for Amerika's crimes and atrocities.  The massacre was going along full blast by un-named perpetrators, and then along came some Americans who "participated" in what un-named others had apparently started.  Oooops, no, excuse me, "reportedly" participated.  Who will ever know for sure?

<<inflamed national anger at the 1968 slaughter of 200 unarmed villagers . . . >>

It was over 800, you lying bastard.  (Not you, Cro, the author of this lying piece of shit.)

<< . . . damaging public confidence in the war effort. >>

Damaging public confidence?  How about "occasioning a wave of moral revulsion?"

<<A 1971 court‐martial condemned Lt. William L. Calley to life in prison for the crime, a sentence later commuted.>>

Time served, what?  A year of house arrest?  Can you say, "farce?"  Can you say, "whitewash?"

Sorry you had to associate your name with this garbage, Cro.

ya know, Michael,  I didn't write the article...and once again you choose to denigrate me because you (and your far left leanings) don't agree with everything in the article.  The fact is that you are anti-American.  Too bad I couldn't find the same shit to post here about Castro... then I am sure we would all get to see one magnificent meltdown.

My point was that most every government, tribe, cult, society is guilty of atrocities period.

as ever

Cro

[Michael Tee]

<<"Even" kinda implies that it wasn't the only thing they did, doesn't it?>>

Sure it does, but it doesn't necessarily imply that the other stuff was combat-related.  "Even" could mean that this was the craziest prank in a long series of crazy pranks.  (Although this particular caper wasn't exactly a prank, the General was an ardent equestrian and took a great interest in such things, maybe even too much of an interest, considering the times and the circumstances.) 

Let me just make it very clear, I am not questioning Patton's troops' combat participation going in an eastbound direction, only how they withdrew when it became apparent that they had gone farther than they were supposed to under the Yalta accords.

[Michael Tee]

I was disappointed that you posted the article because it's beneath you, Cro.  That is not "denigrating" you at all and I'm sorry you took it that way.  Obviously I disagree with you strongly and the article's an evasive and downright dishonest piece of crap, but I have the highest respect for you and I'm really sorry that you chose to interpret my remarks as personally denigrating.  That certainly was not my  intent.

I also think you are way too quick with accusations of anti-Americanism.  It's becoming your get-out-of-jail-free card to slough off any criticism of your country, however valid.  I did not START my life as anti-American, I was once probably the strongest booster of America that it will ever have.  But bit by bit, from the overthrow of the Arbenz government in Guatema right up to the present, it is America's own morally repulsive actions that have turned me into what you are pleased to so facilely label as "anti-American."

Of course the reality is much more complex than that.  There is more than one America.  The America of the KKK is not the America of the Bill of Rights.  I hate the fascism and militarism that the current administration represents, and (to be fair) that has infected much of the Democratic "opposition." 

It's puzzling and frustrating to see how the far right has so monopolized the brand "America" that only those who support a militaristic, fascist America are "pro-American" and anyone including such courageous individuals as Dennis Kucinich or (in the past) Jane Fonda, who oppose a fascist and militarist Amerika, are so easily labelled as "anti-American."  I think the left has to wage the kind of campaign they waged in the Sixties to take back the language and take back the brand.  Then, they did it by surrendering the brand but changing only one letter in it - - the fascists could have their "America," only from now on, in their hands, it would be "Amerika," or even, "Amerikkka," while only the country of the progressives and the left was "America."

[crocat]

That is my point.  Most articles have a lot of crap in them.  Including most of the posts in here.  Occasionally I  will find an article that is often leaning one way or the other in bias because it seems we get bogged down in onewayisms.....I hate that.


The truth is that I rely on no one regarding my personal beliefs and how I live my life.  I am not judgemental with people with the exception of lazy victimhood.  I live my life wholly by "do on to others... " and yet I am not religious.

I stand by my belief that humankind is capable of extraordinary cruel behavior no matter who they are or where they live.  Often your posts waft at giving anyone who is not American a pass, particularly if it is in response to something American.

I was disappointed that you posted the article because it's beneath you, Cro.  That is not "denigrating" you at all and I'm sorry you took it that way.  Obviously I disagree with you strongly and the article's an evasive and downright dishonest piece of crap, but I have the highest respect for you and I'm really sorry that you chose to interpret my remarks as personally denigrating.  That certainly was not my  intent.

I also think you are way too quick with accusations of anti-Americanism.  It's becoming your get-out-of-jail-free card to slough off any criticism of your country, however valid.  I did not START my life as anti-American, I was once probably the strongest booster of America that it will ever have.  But bit by bit, from the overthrow of the Arbenz government in Guatema right up to the present, it is America's own morally repulsive actions that have turned me into what you are pleased to so facilely label as "anti-American."

Of course the reality is much more complex than that.  There is more than one America.  The America of the KKK is not the America of the Bill of Rights.  I hate the fascism and militarism that the current administration represents, and (to be fair) that has infected much of the Democratic "opposition." 

It's puzzling and frustrating to see how the far right has so monopolized the brand "America" that only those who support a militaristic, fascist America are "pro-American" and anyone including such courageous individuals as Dennis Kucinich or (in the past) Jane Fonda, who oppose a fascist and militarist Amerika, are so easily labelled as "anti-American."  I think the left has to wage the kind of campaign they waged in the Sixties to take back the language and take back the brand.  Then, they did it by surrendering the brand but changing only one letter in it - - the fascists could have their "America," only from now on, in their hands, it would be "Amerika," or even, "Amerikkka," while only the country of the progressives and the left was "America."

[Amianthus]

Let me just make it very clear, I am not questioning Patton's troops' combat participation going in an eastbound direction, only how they withdrew when it became apparent that they had gone farther than they were supposed to under the Yalta accords.

As I said, it's in the operational reports. 2nd ACR among other units.

[Michael Tee]

<<I stand by my belief that humankind is capable of extraordinary cruel behavior no matter who they are or where they live.  Often your posts waft at giving anyone who is not American a pass, particularly if it is in response to something American.>>

Well, I sure as hell didn't give al Qaeda in Iraq a pass when BT posted their torture manual, and I didn't give the Iranians a pass on their treatment of Bahai's or homosexuals or the torture-murder of Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi.  This seems to be a standard defensive myth of the right wing, that critics of America never criticize anyone else.  Personally, I find the exact opposite is true - - the supporters of Amerikan fascism and militarism brush off any valid critique of Amerikan actions with the ridiculous rubric "We're not perfect but . . ." as if the issue were America's failure to attain some impossible standard of perfection, rather than the commission of crimes that at Nuremburg would have brought a death sentence.

That said, I also think it's ridiculous in the extreme to hold America to the same standards as Iraq or Iran.  It's absolutely pathetic how the right-wing loonies in the group seem to think that showing how bad the Taliban or the Iraqis are is somehow a defence of America.  That is such utter bullshit.  The preamble to the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Gettysburg address did not come from Iran or Iraq or the Koran (or the Bible either for that matter) and people have come to expect a lot more of America than they will ever expect from any Middle Eastern country or from any religion.  So I don't buy this BS that "everyone does it" as some kind of excuse.  America lets down the best of its heritage when it elects men like Bush and Cheney and it disappoints the whole world, whether they want to admit it or not.  Iran and Iraq can't really disappoint anyone very much.

[crocat]

<<I stand by my belief that humankind is capable of extraordinary cruel behavior no matter who they are or where they live.  Often your posts waft at giving anyone who is not American a pass, particularly if it is in response to something American.>>

Well, I sure as hell didn't give al Qaeda in Iraq a pass when BT posted their torture manual, and I didn't give the Iranians a pass on their treatment of Bahai's or homosexuals or the torture-murder of Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi.  This seems to be a standard defensive myth of the right wing, that critics of America never criticize anyone else.  Personally, I find the exact opposite is true - - the supporters of Amerikan fascism and militarism brush off any valid critique of Amerikan actions with the ridiculous rubric "We're not perfect but . . ." as if the issue were America's failure to attain some impossible standard of perfection, rather than the commission of crimes that at Nuremburg would have brought a death sentence.

That said, I also think it's ridiculous in the extreme to hold America to the same standards as Iraq or Iran.  It's absolutely pathetic how the right-wing loonies in the group seem to think that showing how bad the Taliban or the Iraqis are is somehow a defence of America.  That is such utter bullshit.  The preamble to the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Gettysburg address did not come from Iran or Iraq or the Koran (or the Bible either for that matter) and people have come to expect a lot more of America than they will ever expect from any Middle Eastern country or from any religion.  So I don't buy this BS that "everyone does it" as some kind of excuse.  America lets down the best of its heritage when it elects men like Bush and Cheney and it disappoints the whole world, whether they want to admit it or not.  Iran and Iraq can't really disappoint anyone very much.

[/color]

again... I don't offer up the 'we are not perfect but... ' excuse but a the same time I don't hold anyone up to different standards.  Iran/Iraq should be held up to the same standards... as should China, North Korea, Libia, Syria or any other damn country that wants to be part of/ acquire support of/ or trade with those that are supposed to be held to a higher standard.

I am painting crown molding out in the garage and thinking about this conversation, Michael, and it occurred to me that often in these groups we all talk so vehemently about what we believe (to be true) that often we don't listen... my thought was simply this... if no one is really listening maybe we should just think it... post empty pages.  I try to think about all sides of the issues.  The truth is this... I don't trust the media, I don't trust politicians, I don't trust doctors, lawyers, or even people that I have worked with, I don't trust people in these clubs.  Why?  Because throughout my life I have watch people rationalize their behavior.  So I do what I think is right and take the rest of the world with a grain of very course salt.

[Michael Tee]

That's an interesting comment except I'm not sure what you mean by "trust."  I don't trust anyone 100% but I always like to hear what they have to say.  Even the right-wing crazies in this group.  And I want them to hear what I have to say.  Even if they are impervious to my reason and logic, I just want them to know that the universe does not accept their view as the only view. 

Sure, everyone comes with his own bias - - plane said something about that once that was really concise and clever, but I can't remember what it was.  And plane's a guy I disagree with 99 times out of a hundred.

I trust my doctors and my wife's doctors because we wouldn't be alive without them, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong, so I question them a lot.  I do it respectfully and they really don't mind (if they did, I'd fire them.)  I trust my brakes on the highway and that means I trust the guy who tuned them up.  And, no, I don't test them every time before pulling out of the driveway.

Literally, I don't see how anyone can get through his or her day without some degree of trust.  Trust that the money I put in the bank will be there when I draw a cheque against it.  I don't trust the media on some stories, I trust 'em on others.  I trust the Toronto Star if it tells me funding was approved for a new subway line.  I don't trust it if it tells me the Canadian Army has the Taliban on the run in Kandahar Province.  I trust Juan Cole.  I trust Ralph Nader.  I don't trust Fox News or CNN.  Politicians, I agree, are very hard to trust.  The only one that I trust completely is Fidel Castro, and even he let me down very badly one time.  Although I can see the practical reasons for it now - - the Bay of Pigs prisoners should all have been executed for treason by firing squads, and instead they were traded for medicines.  It wasn't that the medicines were that badly needed, it was really that Cuba would have alienated not only sympathetic Americans but all Europeans, had the executions proceeded.

I realize that a lot of the stuff I post here starts with an emotion - - I see stuff that turns my stomach, that I know just can't be right, and I say so.  But I try to listen to the arguments in defence of what I saw.  I will tell you, some things are just indefensible.  There is no argument that can justify the rape of a child and (IMHO) there is no argument that can justify the torture of another human being.  There's no logical argument I'm aware of that I am my brother's keeper, either.  At some point, logic reaches its limit and we are left with just conflicting definitions of who we are.  I'm a guy who can't torture a prisoner, you're a guy who can if he (the prisoner) knows where the next attack is coming from.

Posting empty pages seems like a very Zen thing to do.  I'm not gonna start doing it though because it really amounts to an undeserved claim of superiority over the other members of the group  - - "All YOU have to contribute is blather, but since I am too proud to blather, I'll post this blank page."  Better to put up my thoughts, warts and all, and let my detractors have at them.  Rightly or (much more often) wrongly.

[crocat]

That's an interesting comment except I'm not sure what you mean by "trust."  I don't trust anyone 100% but I always like to hear what they have to say.  Even the right-wing crazies in this group.  And I want them to hear what I have to say.  Even if they are impervious to my reason and logic, I just want them to know that the universe does not accept their view as the only view. 

Sure, everyone comes with his own bias - - plane said something about that once that was really concise and clever, but I can't remember what it was.  And plane's a guy I disagree with 99 times out of a hundred.

I trust my doctors and my wife's doctors because we wouldn't be alive without them, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong, so I question them a lot.  I do it respectfully and they really don't mind (if they did, I'd fire them.)  I trust my brakes on the highway and that means I trust the guy who tuned them up.  And, no, I don't test them every time before pulling out of the driveway.

Literally, I don't see how anyone can get through his or her day without some degree of trust.  Trust that the money I put in the bank will be there when I draw a cheque against it.  I don't trust the media on some stories, I trust 'em on others.  I trust the Toronto Star if it tells me funding was approved for a new subway line.  I don't trust it if it tells me the Canadian Army has the Taliban on the run in Kandahar Province.  I trust Juan Cole.  I trust Ralph Nader.  I don't trust Fox News or CNN.  Politicians, I agree, are very hard to trust.  The only one that I trust completely is Fidel Castro, and even he let me down very badly one time.  Although I can see the practical reasons for it now - - the Bay of Pigs prisoners should all have been executed for treason by firing squads, and instead they were traded for medicines.  It wasn't that the medicines were that badly needed, it was really that Cuba would have alienated not only sympathetic Americans but all Europeans, had the executions proceeded.

I realize that a lot of the stuff I post here starts with an emotion - - I see stuff that turns my stomach, that I know just can't be right, and I say so.  But I try to listen to the arguments in defence of what I saw.  I will tell you, some things are just indefensible.  There is no argument that can justify the rape of a child and (IMHO) there is no argument that can justify the torture of another human being.  There's no logical argument I'm aware of that I am my brother's keeper, either.  At some point, logic reaches its limit and we are left with just conflicting definitions of who we are.  I'm a guy who can't torture a prisoner, you're a guy who can if he (the prisoner) knows where the next attack is coming from.

Posting empty pages seems like a very Zen thing to do.  I'm not gonna start doing it though because it really amounts to an undeserved claim of superiority over the other members of the group  - - "All YOU have to contribute is blather, but since I am too proud to blather, I'll post this blank page."  Better to put up my thoughts, warts and all, and let my detractors have at them.  Rightly or (much more often) wrongly.

Specifically, I never start from a place of trust on things that matter.  1. I have stepped on my brakes (in a car that was newish and well maintained) only to not have them.  2.In every profession there are top of the class and bottom of the class...hence my distrust until earned. 3. I am not"a guy who can if he (the prisoner) knows where the next attack is coming from."  I have a difficult time with anything hurting...but that is not to say that at times I don't understand the need to.

And yes... I am very Zen-like...what can I say, yet here I am... plodding away trying to find some middle ground.