Author Topic: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...  (Read 2090 times)

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sirs

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Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« on: September 14, 2007, 03:57:12 AM »
...to take out those sinister familes that are collaborating with Coalition forces

Al-Qaida in Iraq takes heavy losses 
Sep 13, 2007

BAGHDAD, (UPI) -- Al-Qaida militants in Iraq have taken heavy losses in two joint U.S.-Iraqi raids north of Baghdad, the U.S. military reported Thursday.

In one operation involving more than 1,000 U.S. troops and Iraq Special Forces in the Hemreen mountain area and Diyala river valley, three al-Qaida fighters were killed and 80 others were arrested, the Army statement said.

The report said four of the arrested men are considered senior leaders in the terror group, Kuwait's KUNA news agency reported. U.S. air support was used to conclude the raid, after which a major weapons cache was found, the statement said.

Elsewhere in Salah Al-Din province, U.S. forces arrested 12 al-Qaida suspects and destroyed an entire house packed with explosives and weaponry, the report said.

Article


But be patient Tee.  I'm sure your folks will find some more recruits to target Iraqi families who dare to try bring peace to their country
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 09:28:15 AM »
<<But be patient Tee.  I'm sure your folks will find some more recruits to target Iraqi families who dare to try bring peace to their country>>

Just like the French Resistance always found more recruits willing to target the Vichy collaborators who tried to bring the "peace" of the invaders to their country, sirs.  But congratulations, I see you are slowly coming to grips with the idea that there are some in any country who will not submit to foreign conquest and will continue to oppose it even at the cost of their lives, and that after they die, others spring forward to take their place.  That's very perceptive of you, sirs.  Soon you will realize that like the Brits before them, the U.S. will not be able to crush out the spirit of Iraqi Resistance, and that ultimately the foreign invaders WILL be forced out and their local collaborators WILL pay the price of their treason.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 09:55:56 AM »
there are some in any country who will not submit to foreign conquest and will continue to oppose
it even at the cost of their lives, and that after they die, others spring forward to take their place.


yeah, go tell that to the Sioux, the Japanese, and the Germans
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 11:28:56 AM »
<<But be patient Tee.  I'm sure your folks will find some more recruits to target Iraqi families who dare to try bring peace to their country>>

Just like the French Resistance always found more recruits willing to target the Vichy collaborators who tried to bring the "peace" of the invaders to their country, sirs.  But congratulations, I see you are slowly coming to grips with the idea that there are some in any country who will not submit to foreign conquest and will continue to oppose it even at the cost of their lives, and that after they die, others spring forward to take their place.  That's very perceptive of you, sirs.  Soon you will realize that like the Brits before them, the U.S. will not be able to crush out the spirit of Iraqi Resistance, and that ultimately the foreign invaders WILL be forced out and their local collaborators WILL pay the price of their treason.

I see ya'll have discussed this issue to death, e.g. going into Iraq. My view is that it was commonly known that there were WMDs there. Apparently, this was not true. CA decided to go in and address this issue. If CA says "go", then we "go". We spanked thier armed forces. Easily. The problem arose after this part of the Mission. We should've got out then and let the Iraqi Armed Forces take care of the sitaution at that point. We could assist them in the background, but the key is that Iraqis govern Iraqis.

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 11:58:09 AM »
<<there are some in any country who will not submit to foreign conquest and will continue to oppose
it even at the cost of their lives, and that after they die, others spring forward to take their place.>>

CU4 <<yeah, go tell that to the Sioux, the Japanese, and the Germans>>

I wouldn't have a problem telling that to the Sioux, and if you ever build up to the same numerical advantage over the Iraqis, I'll tell it to them, too.

When you decide to nuke the Iraqis, I'll tell 'em to make like little Japs and surrender unconditionally.

And when you get the Red Army to steamroller the Iraqis like they did to Germany, while French, British and U.S. armies were invading from the other side, I'd say you might have a valid point.

NOW:  back to the real world.  You don't have the muscle of the Allies in WWII, you don't have a nuclear monopoly, and while you do have vast numerical superiority in population, you are not willing to translate that into vast numerical superiority in combat troops for reasons which I attribute to a basic knowledge even among the ruling class that proposed the war, that the American people won't stand for it because they know how wrong the whole thing is.  As long as the only people being sacrificed for this bullshit are the sons and daughters of the working class and the lumpenproletariat (plus a whole whack of green card aspirants) nobody gives a shit and the war can go on.  Try getting people killed over there whose parents have a little clout and a voice and you'll see a whole different situation.

Amianthus

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 12:24:33 PM »
And when you get the Red Army to steamroller the Iraqis like they did to Germany, while French, British and U.S. armies were invading from the other side, I'd say you might have a valid point.

Actually, there were American units coming from both sides. Some of Patton's forces linked up with the Soviets in Czechoslovakia and joined them heading west.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 12:35:00 PM »

"My view is that it was commonly known that there were WMDs there"

yeah sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 03:02:27 PM »
Have you united yourself with another Christian for Less Government yet, or is there still just the one of you?

Iraq may have had a few leftover weapons in 2002, but they were unaware of where they were, and certainly had no means of delivering them to the US.
 
The motives for the war were all lies from any practical point of view.


More Iraqis are dying now every day than under Saddam.

But a few people did get kicjkass toy cars.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

crocat

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 10:11:39 PM »
there are some in any country who will not submit to foreign conquest and will continue to oppose
it even at the cost of their lives, and that after they die, others spring forward to take their place.


yeah, go tell that to the Sioux, the Japanese, and the Germans

I love this...every damn liberal in this club seems to think that the US government is the only one that commits attrocities.

Atrocities

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Atrocities
US Military History Companion
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Home > Library > Military > US Military History Companion
Atrocities

are acts of wartime violence whose cruelty or brutality exceeds martial necessity. Such acts include looting, torture, rape, and massacre?the killing of captive troops or civilians. The contentious issue of atrocity has arisen in all American wars, typically as a rallying cry against enemies, but also when American troops have committed unmerciful acts.

Beginning with the 1637 Pequot War, conflicts with eastern Native Americans were bloody. Punishing the Pequots for the death of an English trader, Massachusetts militia attacked men, women, and children at the stockaded Mystic village, setting it ablaze and shooting escapees. Celebrating their rivals' destruction, the victors set an enduring pattern in Indian‐white relations. Anglo‐Americans decried Mohawk, Miami, Seminole, or Creek attacks on their settlements or troops as massacres, but praised no less brutal strikes against Indian villages as just.

Distrust of English rule grew after the Boston Massacre, in which royal soldiers fatally shot five members of a protest mob in 1770. During the Revolutionary War, when bayonet‐wielding British troops ambushed and routed sleeping colonial militia at Paoli in 1777, some Americans retaliated by denying quarter to their foe at Germantown. Frontier fighting between patriots and loyalists, especially in the South, was particularly ruthless.

Mid‐nineteenth‐century wars saw efforts to curb atrocity. But in 1836, Mexican troops killed all 187 defenders in the Battle of the Alamo and executed 330 prisoners at Goliad. Thus, when vengeful Texans under Sam Houston overran the Mexicans at the Battle of San Jacinto, they shot, clubbed, and stabbed to death enemy soldiers (some wounded) begging for mercy. During the 1846 U.S. invasion of Mexico, newspapers reported pillage, rape, and murder of civilians by Gen. Zachary Taylor's soldiers. Consequently, Gen. Winfield Scott set a code of conduct enforceable by military courts.

In the Civil War, the federal government issued General Order 100 to limit battlefield excesses. The first man executed under it was Confederate Henry C. Wirz, commandant of the most infamous of Civil War prisoner‐of‐war camps?Andersonville. Public outrage over the deaths of thousands of Union soldiers by starvation, exposure, and disease overrode evidence that Wirz did everything in his power to improve conditions. In another controversial case, a Confederate brigade under Nathan Bedford Forrest overwhelmed a Union garrison in the Battle of Fort Pillow, Tennessee, in 1864, slaying 60 percent of the defenders. Sparing one‐half of the white Federals but killing over four‐fifths of the black soldiers, Forrest's men seemingly committed a calculated racist massacre. Congressional hearings yielded contradictory testimony, but prompted no trials.

Late nineteenth‐century authorities contended that laws governing combat between ?civilized? powers did not apply to irregular warfare and ?uncivilized? foes. The Colorado volunteer militia's 1864 Sand Creek Massacre of 105 Cheyenne women and children inspired Indian depredations against settlers and the dismemberment of 81 U.S. soldiers in the 1866 Fetterman Massacre. In Gen. George Armstrong Custer's 1868 Washita raid, only 13 of 103 Cheyenne killed were warriors. Thwarting a U.S. raid at the Battle of the Little Bighorn in 1876, Sioux and Cheyenne braves took no prisoners, killing Custer and 265 of his men. At the Battle of Wounded Knee, 1890, the Seventh Cavalry ended the cycle of retribution by slaughtering 200 Sioux refugees.

During the 1899?1902 Philippine War, some American commanders allegedly condoned atrocities, including denying quarter, indiscriminate burnings, and torture of prisoners and civilians. Reacting to the 1901 Balangiga massacre, in which Filipino guerrillas hacked to death thirty‐nine U.S. soldiers, Gen. Jacob Smith told officers to make the island of Samar a ?howling wilderness? and kill any males over the age of ten. Though not implemented as policy, his directive exonerated one subordinate who illegally executed civilians.

Reaction to atrocity contributed to U.S. involvement in both world wars and in war crimes tribunals. In 1915, Americans shuddered at reports of Germany's ruthless Belgian occupation (made even more lurid by British reportage) and Berlin's use of submarines?most notably the sinking of the Lusitania, a British passenger liner, in which 1,200 passengers (128 of them Americans) died. The 1937 ?Rape of Nanjing? (260,000 Chinese civilians and POWs were killed and as many as 30,000 women sexually assaulted) helped fix the Japanese government in the American mind as a rogue regime. The attack on Pearl Harbor and the April 1942 Bataan Death March, in which 15,000 American and Filipino prisoners died from abuse and starvation in the Philippines, seemed to confirm the perception of Japanese barbarity. Even more horrific was the genocidal policy of Nazi Germany, whose systematic liquidation of millions of civilians, including two‐thirds of European Jews, shocked global opinion into united action. After 1945, international courts convicted and executed many Axis officials for war crimes against humanity.

In the Vietnam War, U.S. officials emphasized the Communist insurgents' campaigns of kidnapping and assassination, but downplayed atrocities of their Saigon allies. U.S. Army suppression of reports of American participation in the My Lai Massacre inflamed national anger at the 1968 slaughter of 200 unarmed villagers, damaging public confidence in the war effort. A 1971 court‐martial condemned Lt. William L. Calley to life in prison for the crime, a sentence later commuted.

Charges of atrocity justified U.S. military involvement in Somalia, Bosnia, and Kosovo, as well as the Persian Gulf War. Reported abuse of civilians during Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait galvanized an international coalition to reverse the invasion and attempt to supervise the elimination of Saddam Hussein's offensive arsenals. Seeking to end the deplorable famine and factional violence in Somalia, U.S. troops safeguarded relief efforts in 1992?93, but could not stop the vicious fighting. Outrages in the Bosnian Crisis (?ethnic cleansing? and the use of land mines, artillery, and snipers against civilians) eventually led to 20,000 U.S. troops joining NATO forces to police that area of the former Yugoslavia. The same occurred in the Kosovo Crisis (1999).

[See also Geneva Conventions; Genocide; Holocaust, U.S. War Effort and the; Native American Wars: Wars Between Native Americans and Europeans and Euro‐Americans.]

Bibliography

    * Leon Friedman, The Law and War: A Documentary History, 2 vols., 1972.
    * Richard R. Lael, The Yamashita Precedent: War Crimes and Command Responsibility, 1982


sirs

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2007, 10:19:27 PM »
Excellent piece Cat, and great point about how terrible the U.S. supposedly is, compared to so many literally oppressive evil regimes.  It's those skewed glasses that allows the same leftists to declare how terribly poor those under the poverty level are here in this country, with their car, color cable TV, DVD player, & Playstation II, compared to the poor in places like Darfur, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc.     
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2007, 10:23:16 PM »
<<Actually, there were American units coming from both sides. Some of Patton's forces linked up with the Soviets in Czechoslovakia and joined them heading west.>>

I knew about Patton's forces getting into Czechoslovakia, but I thought they just pulled back to where they were supposed to be according to the Yalta Conference agreements.  This is the first I heard that they actually conducted offensive operations with the Red Army in its drive west.  Are you sure this is what happened?

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 10:37:16 PM »
<<In the Vietnam War, U.S. officials emphasized the Communist insurgents' campaigns of kidnapping and assassination, but downplayed atrocities of their Saigon allies.>>

Sure.  The "Saigon allies" committed atrocities.  God-damn Saigon allies.  I guess the writer thinks it was "Saigon allies" who tossed live prisoners out of helicopters, "rang up" bound and helpless prisoners by hooking their genitals and anuses to field telephone generators, used K-bar knives to skin prisoners alive and put white phosphorus in the vaginas of captured female VC.  Evidently this jerk-off has YOU fooled, Cro, but that doesn't mean he fooled everyone.

<< U.S. Army suppression of reports of American participation in the My Lai Massacre . . . >>

"Reports" of "participation" - - well put, thou mealy-mouthed apologist for Amerika's crimes and atrocities.  The massacre was going along full blast by un-named perpetrators, and then along came some Americans who "participated" in what un-named others had apparently started.  Oooops, no, excuse me, "reportedly" participated.  Who will ever know for sure?

<<inflamed national anger at the 1968 slaughter of 200 unarmed villagers . . . >>

It was over 800, you lying bastard.  (Not you, Cro, the author of this lying piece of shit.)

<< . . . damaging public confidence in the war effort. >>

Damaging public confidence?  How about "occasioning a wave of moral revulsion?"

<<A 1971 court‐martial condemned Lt. William L. Calley to life in prison for the crime, a sentence later commuted.>>

Time served, what?  A year of house arrest?  Can you say, "farce?"  Can you say, "whitewash?"

Sorry you had to associate your name with this garbage, Cro.

Amianthus

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 10:48:54 PM »
I knew about Patton's forces getting into Czechoslovakia, but I thought they just pulled back to where they were supposed to be according to the Yalta Conference agreements.  This is the first I heard that they actually conducted offensive operations with the Red Army in its drive west.  Are you sure this is what happened?

Yup.

They even stole the Lipizzaner Stallions from under the noses of the Soviets...

I've got a book around somewhere that is a copy of all of the Third Army's operational reports from when Patton took over command until the end of the war...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 10:56:32 PM »
<<They even stole the Lipizzaner Stallions from under the noses of the Soviets...>>

That was hardly a combat operation.

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: Uh oh....less "freedom fighters"...
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2007, 11:29:26 PM »
Depends on whether the stallions WANTED to be stolen.  ;D