Author Topic: We're fucked  (Read 27149 times)

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Plane

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2008, 06:26:14 PM »
A National government changeing revolution is hard to stage ,  company leadership revolutions happen almost constantly .

Is it easyer to cover up wrongdoing and misappropriation with the power of a government office or a corporate one?

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MUCH easier to cover up such stuff in a corporation. Just witness what went on at Enron, Lehman Brothers, WAMU. One day they are great companies, the next day, they are deceased for all practical purposes.
The government has better systems for tracing where the money is going, and it tends to be more public. They can't arrest reporters doing an investigation on govt. fraud. If they catch thm going through thr records at some corporation, they get arrested, sued, fined and fired.









Didn't several congressmen get caught with graft last few years?

The Republicans even were sent to jail , the democrats that stuffed their freezers with cold cash are gonna get reelected .

But when ENRON went to court even the big Democrats went to jail.

I think taken as a whole it is much easyer to correct corporate malfeasance than governmental.

And I have never seen any evidence that government is less prone to it than corperations.

crocat

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2008, 08:46:31 PM »
LMFAO.... I know that is old chat room lingo but please...

For all of you anti government conspiracy nuts... corporate can do more than government?   HA HA HA....wadda bout yer black helicopters.

EVERYONE can and does bend rules - the problem comes when there is no higher ground to judge the severity of said 'bend.'   

The way I see it, we can equate harm to all - Catholic priests, Greedy corporate bastards and yes.... Congressmen that pad their coffers and are bought out by big interests.   It is a good healthy mix...get over it

R.R.

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2008, 10:28:12 PM »
I have been told that there are 200,000 absentee ballots cast in my state which is going overwhelmingly McCain. And this should wipe out or at least nullify all of this early voting by Democrats.

So it seems we are not fucked after all.

fatman

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2008, 10:34:25 PM »
Doesn't matter what percentage of religious people the TV evangelists represent, they probably rake in the lion's share of all that money that the "good-hearted" American people supposedly donate to "religion."

I'm not so sure about that Tee, wouldn't tithes be considered "giving to religion"?  I give 10% of my net to the Church, I think 10% is the rate for Mormons too so Pooch would also give 10%.  I'm not sure how different Catholic parishes handle that, Rich or JS could enlighten me on that, but when I was Catholic it was also 10%.

That adds up pretty quickly.

But I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it were worth something.

richpo64

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2008, 10:58:08 PM »
I'ver always worked under the 8 percent for the Church and 2 percent for other charities rule.

Michael Tee

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2008, 11:23:35 PM »
<<Didn't several congressmen get caught with graft last few years?>>

Yeah, they did.  Why don't you try comparing the lifestyles of the crooked Congressmen with the lifestyles of the crooked executives?  Then you'll KNOW who steals more.

Or try comparing the NUMBER of corporate crooks caught in the past five years with the number of crooked corporate executives.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.

The concept that government steals more than private business is frankly ridiculous.  I'm absolutely fascinated by the sheer ignorance of the American people.  Where do you actually get your ludicrous ideas from?   How would you account for the fact that everyone we know who has had surgery or treatment of major illnesses, ourselves included, has received excellent medical care and our life span is longer than the average American's life span, if "Big Government crooks" are robbing us blind? 

How is it that YOUR government has had to fork over $700 billion to make good the losses of scoundrels in private industry with no comparable loss or theft from any government program or programs, and yet you are still maintaining the absurd fiction that private business is less wasteful than government??

Your crazy theories have absolutely no relationship to facts which are staring you straight in the face every time you turn on your TV's and yet you persist in babbling your crapulous nonsense about the evils of big government and the wonders of big business.  It really does sound like the inmates have taken over the asylum.  Engaging in debates like this sure solves one major problem for me:  HOW was George W. Bush EVER elected to any public office anywhere in the U.S.?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2008, 12:22:29 AM »




I have been told that there are 200,000 absentee ballots cast in my state which is going overwhelmingly McCain. And this should wipe out or at least nullify all of this early voting by Democrats.

So it seems we are not fucked after all.

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Why should absentee ballots be cast more for McCain than for Obama?

There is no reason to suppose this whatever, although you "have been told" it.

McCain is going down. Watch and see.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2008, 12:27:13 AM »




I have been told that there are 200,000 absentee ballots cast in my state which is going overwhelmingly McCain. And this should wipe out or at least nullify all of this early voting by Democrats.

So it seems we are not fucked after all.

====================================
Why should absentee ballots be cast more for McCain than for Obama?

There is no reason to suppose this whatever, although you "have been told" it.

McCain is going down. Watch and see.


McCain is going down. But who's in the Congress?

If we vote a man into office to sit up high and full of might. What does that really matter in the end....when the Congress makes or breaks a hell of a lot of what skips the beat in this nation.

I like Obama. I hope he can pull something together.

I also like McCain and Palin.

We have a lot of cleaning up to do because of that Bush.

Damn....not your Charilie Brown world anymore.

R.R.

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2008, 01:47:29 AM »
Quote
Why should absentee ballots be cast more for McCain than for Obama?

There is no reason to suppose this whatever, although you "have been told" it.

McCain is going down. Watch and see.

Republicans hold a lead in Florida among returned absentee ballots. According to numbers from the beginning of this week, more than 295,000 Republicans had returned absentee ballots compared to 199,800 Democrats and almost 76,800 Independents. 

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/democrats-lead.html

-----------

I have officially rescinded the "We're fucked" proclamation, and I now rate Florida as "Lean Republican." 

Plane

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2008, 02:15:05 AM »
Or try comparing the NUMBER of corporate crooks caught in the past five years with the number of crooked corporate executives.  There's more than one way to skin a cat.



    The relitive number caught could easily be misleading , there are many thousands more Bussinessmen than congressmen , and the rate at which they get caught relitive to one another doesn't tell you how relitively well they hide malfeasance.

   Also the rules for Congressional obedience to the law are more lax , Congress isn't really passing the same test that Enron failed.

Michael Tee

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2008, 07:43:03 AM »
<<The relitive number caught could easily be misleading , there are many thousands more Bussinessmen than congressmen . . . >>

But it's not fair to count only congressmen and include all businessmen and women.  There are plenty of politicians who are crooks and thieves who haven't yet made it into Congress.  If Big Government is as big as you claim it is, surely there are lots more potential wrongdoers than are gathered in Congress.

<< . . .  and the rate at which they get caught relitive to one another doesn't tell you how relitively well they hide malfeasance.>>

Well, in the absence of any hard evidence either way, I would have to assume that neither businessmen and women or politicians are any more skilled than the other at concealing their defalcations.  Besides, a lot of people in Congress were in business beforehand, which makes them qualified in either category.

   <<Also the rules for Congressional obedience to the law are more lax , Congress isn't really passing the same test that Enron failed.>>

That can't be.  When businessmen steal big-time, they wind up with huge accourtrements of wealth, private jets and yachts, private islands in the Caribean, wild, lavish parties costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, $60,000 bottles of vintage wine, the whole nine yards.  Poor old political crooks like Duke Cunningham don't get to live that large, never seem to hit that Nirvana level of larceny, their efforts are so paltry compared to business crooks.

And also the standard wasn't who steals more, but who wastes more.  Theft is only a part of the waste.  In the non-criminal area of waste, the businessmen win hands down over the polticians.  There, your issue of laxness is stood on its head - - there are NO RULES on how much money a businessman can take out from his business.  Every extravagance, every strip-club expense account, every limo ride is the "cost of doing business" or a personal life-style decision which at any level of government would be critically scrutinized and mercilessly exposed.  Corporate jets are the norm, mansions and bigger mansions are to be expected - - a politician living that life, unless he marries into it like McCain or Kerry, is going to have his ass nailed to the wall.

I think, particularly in North America (except Mexico) and Western Europe, the amount of thievery and waste from government programs is pretty well kept under control, while no such controls exist in business.  The fact that thousands of employees can be let go in hard times to "cut costs" indicates that in good times a lot of unnecessary "fat" is being carried on business payrolls.  The existence of corporate raiders such as Carl Icahn was premised on the existence of waste in corporate targets, waste that could easily and quickly be trimmed by the raiders until the corporate assets could be sold off.

If you look at the food industry, for example, and factor in the cost of competition - - each breakfast cereal comes with its own multimillion dollar package of advertising and packaging and marketing which vastly exceeds the cost of the cereal in the box, you will begin to get some tiny glimpse of the wasteful ways of the capitalist system, which YOU pay for with every box of cornflakes that you eat, every gallon of gasoline that you burn, every drug that you or your insurer purchases.

Your MSM is corporate-owned, therefore it's no mystery why they zoom in gleefully on government waste and corruption, but leave almost totally unexamined the stupendous amount of waste that is programmed into the capitalist system.  In fact, by sensationalizing only the overtly criminal side of capitalist waste, they isolate it effectively from the much larger waste and inefficiency of capitalism that is found, for example, in the price of every box of Cornflakes.  You become aware, for example, of the lifestyle of Dennis Koslowski, but not of the owners of the General Foods empire, the media empires, the oil industry, the pharmaceutical industry, etc.  People are making 400 times what you are making, but the only time you hear of it is when they step over the line into overtly criminal actions.  But most of them are smart enough to stay within the bounds of the law where it's LEGAL to make 400 times more than you do.

Now I could easily envisage someone who is twice or even three times as smart or as hard-working as you or I, but I can't imagine someone ten times smarter or ten times more hard-working, yet there are routinely found in business and commerce men and women making ten times, twenty times or more what the average guy is earning.  Why are they being over-compensated at this rate?  The answer is, because they can get away with it.  The PROFITS, generated by the business they are in, permit it.  There is the reason for the waste and inefficiency right there, the profit system.  The governments are not run for profit, the waste and inefficiency you find there are accidents or corruptions of the system, but, and especially in Western Europe, Canada and the U.S.A., they are the exceptions and not the rule.  The profit system however is built into every purchase and sale that takes place under capitalism.  THAT is why the wastage is much greater in business than it is in government.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2008, 09:23:14 AM »
As excellent explanation, Tee, and right on the money. Too bad it took so many long words to say it. The guys you need to convince do not like things in print: they prefer Rush ranting and raving and crumpling paper and banging his chubby fists on the table.

Here in Florida, a municipal water company pointed out that their water had to pass many inspections and had achieved a perfect rating, whereas bottled water was under far more lax rules. The next day, Nestle (owner of Zephyrhills, the biggest bottler of water in the state) was there with a lawsuit.

Most people do not understand that just letting a gallon of city water sit on the counter for an hour will remove all the chlorine taste. It is amazing how much people piss away on bottled water.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2008, 09:56:13 AM »
Most people do not understand that just letting a gallon of city water sit on the counter for an hour will remove all the chlorine taste. It is amazing how much people piss away on bottled water.

Faster if the aeration screen on your kitchen sink isn't all clogged up. If you keep that screen clean, the aerated water will release nearly all the chlorine within minutes.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2008, 10:15:08 AM »
Faster if the aeration screen on your kitchen sink isn't all clogged up. If you keep that screen clean, the aerated water will release nearly all the chlorine within minutes.

I can't taste the chlorine in my tap water, but others can.

Strangely, the same people who are the most fanatic about drinking only bottled water not only always use tap water for their ice cubes (the refrigerator does that for them), and think nothing of either the safety or the taste of ice water, freezes, flips and such made with tap water ice.

I have yet to meet anyone who uses Perrier or Fiji or even common Zephyrhills water for their ice cubes. I think this is akin to the 5-second rule: bugus, but we don't want to think about it, it hurts our brains.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: We're fucked
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2008, 11:04:44 AM »
Strangely, the same people who are the most fanatic about drinking only bottled water not only always use tap water for their ice cubes (the refrigerator does that for them), and think nothing of either the safety or the taste of ice water, freezes, flips and such made with tap water ice.

The refrigerators with ice makers typically have activated charcoal filters which removes the chlorine (and other chemicals that change the taste).
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)