Author Topic: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?  (Read 923 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Returning Troops Blunt Iraq as Campaign Issue in New Hampshire

By Hans Nichols

July 30 (Bloomberg) -- Sergeant Brian Moore had one foot in his bunker in April when a rocket exploded, spraying his back with a dozen bits of burning shrapnel. His spine swelled, paralyzing the New Hampshire National Guardsman for two days.

Two months later, back in New Hampshire from his second Iraq deployment, Moore, 47, told Republican presidential candidate John McCain that, even with his wounds, the U.S. troop surge has tamed the "wild West'' conditions of Moore's first tour in 2003 and 2004. Now, Moore told McCain in a meeting before a town-hall meeting, Baghdad streets are as safe as "downtown Nashua.''

Like Moore, New Hampshire's National Guard troops have almost all returned to their families and jobs, mitigating the Iraq War as an election issue in a swing state both parties are targeting. Two years after anti-war sentiment helped unseat incumbent Republicans in both of New Hampshire's congressional districts, voters rank economic worries and soaring fuel prices as bigger concerns.

"More and more troops are coming home, and fewer and fewer people are being injured,'' said Dean Spiliotes, former research director for the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at Saint Anselm College. "That tends to take people's minds off the immediacy of the conflict.''

McCain and Democrat Barack Obama are battling for four electoral votes from New Hampshire, the only state Republican President George W. Bush won in 2000 and lost in 2004. Obama held a 46-43 percent lead over McCain, a statistical dead heat, in a University of New Hampshire Granite State Poll released last week.

Economy Trumps Iraq

Iraq, New Hampshire voters' second-biggest issue in April, dropped to fourth place, with 8 percent picking it as their top concern. "In 2006, the war certainly was the motivating issue for Democrats, and it depressed turnout and overall depressed Republicans,'' said Andy Smith, who conducted the poll. "Today, it's all about the economy.''

More than four of 10 New Hampshire voters picked "jobs and the economy'' as the most important campaign issue, followed by gasoline prices and health care.

Diminishing voter concern about Iraq isn't necessarily good news for McCain. In the presidential race, "all the data out there show that Democrats do better on domestic issues,'' Spiliotes said. "If the economy is trumping everything, that should help the Democrats.''

New Hampshire Focus

Both campaigns have lavished attention on New Hampshire. Obama, who lost the state's primary to Hillary Clinton, picked Unity, New Hampshire, for his first appearance with the New York senator after clinching the Democratic nomination.

McCain has visited New Hampshire three times since he revived his campaign by winning January's primary. In Rochester last week, McCain criticized Obama's opposition to the surge and his calls for a troop-withdrawal timetable. "It seems to me that Senator Obama would rather lose a war in order to win a political campaign,'' McCain said.

Moore, a high school English teacher and father of four, is among almost 12,000 Guard troops who have returned stateside this summer to share first-hand accounts of conflicts that have divided public opinion.

Moore said he was wounded in one of only three attacks he faced during his most recent 12 months in Iraq. During his first tour, Moore said his convoy took fire more times than he can remember. The difference was the surge, "when we took control of Baghdad,'' he said.

Combat Troops

National Guard members, from military reserve units in every U.S. state, provided a bigger share of combat troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than they have in any other overseas conflict. Since hostilities began, almost 200,000 Guard troops have served in Iraq and more than 25,000 have been in Afghanistan.

At the peak, more than 95,000 Guard soldiers were in Iraq and 10,000 were in Afghanistan, said Major Randal Noller, a National Guard spokesman. Today, the force has fallen to 25,887 Guard troops in Iraq and 5,189 in Afghanistan -- the fewest since the march on Baghdad began in 2003.

Returning National Guard soldiers influence public perceptions of the war because most go directly back to civilian life, said Anthony Cordesman, a security analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

"Communities know when someone from the Guard is out, like a sheriff, a police officer or a doctor,'' Cordesman said. "The whole community is likely to know it.''

Returning Home

New Hampshire has 20 soldiers in Afghanistan and a smaller scattering in Iraq, down from 1,100 deployed in 2004 and 2005, said Major Greg Heilshorn, a New Hampshire Guard spokesman.

Guard troops deployed overseas are almost back to pre-war levels in other likely campaign battlegrounds, such as Wisconsin, New Mexico, Florida and Michigan. The Wisconsin National Guard's Middle East contingent now numbers 88, down from 4,000 soldiers and airmen in 2005. About 100 Florida troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan, from a peak of about 3,500.

On the campaign trail, McCain often talks about the Guard's sacrifices. "The Guard has done things that they have never done before, since World War II,'' he said in Wisconsin this month. "There's one thing worse than an overstretched and over stressed military, and that's a defeated military.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=axFK9LxKEq90&refer=home
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Brassmask

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Re: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 08:05:16 PM »
boy and howdy!  Talk about reaching!

"Winning" a "war" is impossible when we are not really at war.  When you (the right) talk about "winning" what you're really talking about it successfully invading and conquering a sovereign nation, killing off 10% of its population (including women, children and innocent men), destroying its infrastructure at the behest of oil companies who now have control of Iraq's oil.

When/if we "win", it will mean that we, as a nation, are no better than Saddam and his sons.

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!




Plane

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Re: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 09:15:50 PM »

"Winning" a "war" is impossible when we are not really at war.  When you (the right) talk about "winning" what you're really talking about it successfully invading and conquering a sovereign nation, killing off ......



That isn't a war?

Michael Tee

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Re: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 09:58:55 PM »
Probably what the Germans would have done if Hitler had won his war.  What disturbs me is how victory is equated with justice.  It was the right thing to do if you won it.  Some wars just should not be won.  This is one of them.  I hope and pray that you will be ignominiously defeated as you were in Viet Nam and that you pay dearly for your criminal aggression.  Watching you win this one would be as hard as watching Hitler winning his.  The war was 100% wrong, and celebrating it is wrong too.

Plane

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Re: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 11:25:44 PM »
Probably what the Germans would have done if Hitler had won his war.  What disturbs me is how victory is equated with justice.  It was the right thing to do if you won it.  Some wars just should not be won.  This is one of them.  I hope and pray that you will be ignominiously defeated as you were in Viet Nam and that you pay dearly for your criminal aggression.  Watching you win this one would be as hard as watching Hitler winning his.  The war was 100% wrong, and celebrating it is wrong too.

Iraqi people would be better off with randomly chosen strongmen in charge?

Afganistan was a miserable place while we ignored it , the result was a festering hatred and an attack on us on 9-11.

Michael Tee

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Re: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 11:42:38 PM »
<<Iraqi people would be better off with randomly chosen strongmen in charge?>>

Actually, yes.  That's the way most of the Middle East is governed.  Most Iraqis feel they were better off under Saddam.  They actually had a pretty good life before the invasion, (before the embargo) the oil revenues belonged 100% to the Iraqi people and no matter how much Saddam and his buddies siphoned off (also SOP for any oil-producing country, the rulers get the first cut) there was plenty left over to pay for free education from KG through grad school (for men AND women) including studies at foreign universities, free medical care and cheap gas.

<<Afganistan was a miserable place while we ignored it , the result was a festering hatred and an attack on us on 9-11.>>

So what?  It's still miserable.  Now there's festering hatred of you with added good reason, plus they don't have to go to New York to kill you.  But they will anyway.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 11:45:22 PM by Michael Tee »

Michael Tee

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Re: what are they(the Left) gonna do when we end up winning this war?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 01:23:42 PM »
Further to my comments about Afghanistan - -

http://www.counterpunch.com/whitney07312008.html

MW: The United States has occupied Afghanistan for seven years now. Has life gotten better for the people or worse? Is there any security beyond the capital of Kabul or are the US and NATO troops stretched too thin? Do the people generally support the ongoing occupation or are they getting frustrated by the lack of progress and want to see the US go?

Sonali Kolhatkar:    [resume at end of article] Initially, life got better for many Afghans, particularly in Kabul. That's because the Taliban had been routed and the people felt somewhat safe as well as relieved.  But as the warlords took over positions of power, attitudes changed. It has gotten much worse, now that the  Taliban have returned and the occupation forces are killing more civilians than the Taliban. 
Kabul is a bit more secure than the rest of the country. But Kabul is also the warlords’ seat of power. Most of them are even members of Parliament, so people are frequently abused and live in fear. 
Beyond Kabul, things vary dramatically depending on where you go. In the parts of the country with the heaviest concentrations of  US/NATO troops, Afghans are frequently rounded-up, detained, tortured, bombed, or shot by foreign troops just as in Iraq. 
In other parts of the country, where the Taliban are strong; girls schools are blown up, civilians are killed in suicide bombings, and journalists, teachers, and elected officials are harassed or murdered.
Those areas controlled by warlords are ruled with an iron hand, where extreme interpretations of sharia law rule the day, and women suffer rape and degradation.
No matter where you go in Afghanistan, there is utter, grinding poverty. The US occupation has not changed that at all. People are very frustrated, particularly with the US puppet Hamid Karzai. They blame Karzai for the high number of civilian casualties. They also dislike the way he has pardoned some of the warlords and Taliban leaders.
As far as the occupation goes, people were somewhat supportive of it originally, but as conditions have deteriorated, they have begun to see the presence of foreign troops as a big part of the problem.  I would say that a majority of Afghans now want the US and NATO to leave as soon as possible.

Sonali Kolhatkar is the host and producer of Uprising, a popular radio program through Pacifica Network, that airs on stations around the country. She is also the Co-Director of Afghan Women's Mission, a US-based non-profit organization that works in solidarity with the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA). She is the co-author, with James Ingalls, of Bleeding Afghanistan: Washington, Warlords, and the Propaganda of Silence (Seven Stories 2006). More information at www.afghanwomensmission.org, www.rawa.org.