A question for the political Right

[Lanya]

Plane:
Yes, a CIA officer's cover was blown.
No, no one will be accused unless the prosecutor thinks he has enough evidence to prove his case.

Ami,
I know what I was thinking about now: immunity.  If someone gets immunity, they can't take the 5rh, or so I understand.   But that doesn't pertain to Libby.

[sirs]

I don't recall saying I was displeased with the results.  

Your words, actions, and outrage at who hasn't been charged for "outing a covert agent", speaks quite the opposite, it would seem Lanya.  You're even still hung up on the fact that Fitzgerald never classified her as covert, which would have made "outing her" a crime.  She wasn't, and it wasn't.  End of story, or in this case, investigation

I heard a lot of whining about money being spent on this and "no underlying crime" by Republicans, but I haven't heard Democrats who are unhappy about the results. 

I've been seeing one right here in this saloon

And if he's pardoned, then he will not be able to incriminate himself, so if new evidence comes to light,  he can't plead the 5th.

Lanya still salivating at hopefully more indictments, even though the investigation is over

[Plane]

Plane:
Yes, a CIA officer's cover was blown.
No, no one will be accused unless the prosecutor thinks he has enough evidence to prove his case.

There doesn't seem to be enough evidence to make the  case that a CIA officer has been exposed  , where from do you get this certainty?

[sirs]

Plane:  Yes, a CIA officer's cover was blown.

Lanya:  She had a frellin desk job at the CIA.  She wasn't undercover, at the time of this supposed "outing", for her cover to have been blown.  She may have been at some time in her career, but apparently not at this time.  Fitzgerald's investigation can't get much clearer on this.  Libby was prosecuted for giving inconsistent testimony, NOT for divulging any CIA agents "cover".  Is this sinking in yet, or are the Bush bad blinders on as secure as ever?

[Amianthus]

I know what I was thinking about now: immunity.  If someone gets immunity, they can't take the 5rh, or so I understand.   But that doesn't pertain to Libby.

Only if the immunity agreement so specifies. Granted, it usually does, but that is not always the case.

[Brassmask]

A fundie is a fundie is a fundie.

[sirs]

A fundie is a fundie is a fundie.

Ok, that takes care of classifying yourself and Lanya.  Was there a point to that concession?

[Lanya]

Sirs:
Wrong.
'Further, Fitzgerald stated that Plame's identity had been protected by the CIA "not just for the officer, but for the nation's security." And in their recently published book, Hubris, Corn and Newsweek investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff reported that, at the time of the leak, Plame was the chief of operations for the CIA's Joint Task Force on Iraq, which "mount[ed] espionage operations to gather information on the WMD programs Iraq might have."'
http://mediamatters.org/items/200703060008

CIA Director Hayden: ‘Wilson Was Covert’

During House hearings today, Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD) announced that CIA Director Gen. Michael Hayden recently told Reps. Henry Waxman (D-CA) and Silvestre Reyes (D-TX) that there was no doubt Victoria Plame Wilson was covert. Cummings — relaying what Waxman had told him — said that Gen. Hayden expressed clearly and directly, “Ms. Wilson was covert.”

Cummings also asked Wilson to respond to the specific claim, made by Victoria Toensing and others, that Plame had lost her covert status because she “had not been stationed abroad within five years.” Cummings asked, “During the past five years, Ms. Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?” She answered, “Yes I did, congressman.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/16/hayden-cia-plame-covert/

[sirs]

Lanya: WRONG

FACT it's a criminal offense to "out a covert agent"
FACT Fitzgerald did not indict anyone for "outing a covert agent"
FACT Fitzgerald (the fella in charge of the investigation) at no time concluded during any time of the investigation, that Plame was "covert"

This is simple Lanya, and the fact you're still hung up on it demonstrates just how much you're not pleased with the results of the investigation

All you have to do to debunk the above facts is demonstrate ANYWEHRE that Fitzgerald made the official conclusion Plame was covert.  You can't, because he hasn't.  End of story, but by all means, keep making noise

Had she been covert, there would have been a crime committed, and Armitage would have been indicted for it..  The fact is she had a desk job at the CIA, and "leaking" that information is no more a crime than leaking that I'm a Physical Therapist, working at a hospital.

[BT]

Had she been covert, there would have been a crime committed, and Armitage would have been indicted for it..  The fact is she had a desk job at the CIA, and "leaking" that information is no more a crime than leaking that I'm a Physical Therapist, working at a hospital.
 

Not only did she need to be covert but the leaker had to know it. I think the second part was what Fitzgerald was having problems with.

BTW did Hayden testify under oath that she was covert or are we going on Waxman hearsay?

[kimba1]

Probably most importantly, American conservatives and Muslim conservatives have a defining characteristic which makes them immediately hostile to one another: Religion.  Each thinks the other is going to hell.  As Plane pointed out, Muslims of any sect would view our left as hell-bound for licentiousness and our right hellbound for false religion.  Either way we all burn in the same Muslim hell.  Meanwhile, any shared traditional values we hold with Muslims would be overshadowed by that whole Jesus vs. Mohammed thing.  Sure, we'd band together to stone the adulterers, but once those sinners were dead we would turn our attention to each other.  -->


soo true
note: by tolerance on both sides they can talk to each other.
any comparative talk of religion will be insulting
philistine is a revered people in islam
us it`ll be whole different meaning
hitler was well liked by many muslims
we got a different take on him.
speaking of a muslims idea of christianity is just simply insulting.
same on our side.
and both parties are guilty of thinking everybody is the same
all muslim are the same all christians are the same.

[Lanya]

Sirs:
There was a crime committed. It was reported by the CIA to the DOJ. The investigation ensued.
Just because no one is charged for a crime does not mean that no crime was committed---there may be lack of evidence to prove the person did it. But whoever leaked her name in the first place, it was a leak of a CIA officer.  In wartime.   By her own government.

Would you say that a murdered person wasn't dead because no one was ever charged with her murder?

[sirs]

Sirs: There was a crime committed. It was reported by the CIA to the DOJ. The investigation ensued.

Lanya: And the ensuing investigation has concluded that no crime was committed, in the venue of "outing a covert agent".  What was determined is that if you're not sharp enough to recall what you said a while back under oath, and give contrary testimony compared to the notes you've taken, you can be indicted for OoJ.

Just because no one is charged for a crime does not mean that no crime was committed

In this case it does, since we know WHO initially "leaked" Plame's name, and since he was never indicted, there is apparently no crime as to "outing a covert agent", since it's apparent to most rationally minded folks, she wasn't.  Fitzgerald has all but said precisely that.  I realize that you're obviously not satisfied with the results, that not enough Bush folk were dragged out of the WH in handcuffs.  I understand, Bush bad, Bush evil, The Bushies HAD to have committed a crime in this situation because........well, because its Bush.  and Plame just has to be covert, she just has to be.

---there may be lack of evidence to prove the person did it. But whoever leaked her name in the first place, it was a leak of a CIA officer.  

That would be State Dept fella Armitage, who apparently leaked that Plame worked for the CIA, and in no way connected to Bush.  By the way, I'm leaking that BT's working as a politician, but don't tell anyone

Would you say that a murdered person wasn't dead because no one was ever charged with her murder?

Of course not.  But I wouldn't be salivating for someone I despise to be indicted for it, just because I hate the person though, then get all bent out of shape when it was determined following an investigation, that the murdered person actually committed suicide

[Lanya]

Sirs:
I think you'll find the people on your side of the aisle whining about Libby's conviction, calling for pardons, it's appealed, etc.   I'm only repeating over and over that the head of the CIA said she was covert, and that is that.  I am most certainly desirous of someone being brought to justice for this crime. 
Outing a CIA officer is a crime.   It wasn't done by the Russians, it was done by US. That's horrible, and unacceptable.  It makes me wonder if you think it's ok for CIA officers to be outed, by their own government.    Is this acceptable to you? 

[sirs]

Yea, we can all see how quite content you are with the results of the investigation         

A) I don't accept (as well as the little fact it's a CRIME) for covert CIA agents to be "outed"

B) I have no problem when an employee for the CIA's name is legally divulged

It seems you keep focusing on A, when the investigation has concluded B.  But yea, you're fine with the reslts of the Fizgerald investigation