DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Plane on August 21, 2015, 05:56:56 PM

Title: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 21, 2015, 05:56:56 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/cebit/courageous-americans-stop-shooter-on-train/ar-BBlYrvf

Although three were injured , this is more a happy story than not.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 22, 2015, 07:41:00 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/3-who-stopped-attack-were-boyhood-friends/ar-BBm0lBl


Quote
  The three Americans who subdued a gunman aboard a train to Paris are friends from their middle-school days, and two of them serve in the armed forces.

  This month, they embarked on a tour of Europe with stops in Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, France and Spain. But their trip was interrupted on Friday when a gunman boarded the high-speed train headed from Amsterdam to Paris, prepared to wreak havoc.

Mr. Stone was the first to jump up and charge the gunman, followed closely by Mr. Skarlatos and Mr. Sadler, according to Ms. Sadler.

The three tackled the gunman and, with the help of a British businessman living in France, tied him up, she said.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 22, 2015, 08:51:37 PM
I observe that there were no "good men with guns" required to stop this "bad man with a gun".
I find that rather refreshing. I commend the valiant unarmed heroes.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 22, 2015, 11:16:09 PM
I observe that there were no "good men with guns" required to stop this "bad man with a gun".
I find that rather refreshing. I commend the valiant unarmed heroes.

Certainly , this was in France where the gun laws are just as you might like them.

There are not any good men with guns , bad ones only.

Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 23, 2015, 07:14:42 AM
According to Wayne LaPierre there are good men with guns.

If there are only bad men with guns, then guns are what separate bad men with guns and unarmed bad men.

Unarmed bad men are less dangerous.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 23, 2015, 02:55:49 PM
I observe that there were no "good men with guns" required to stop this "bad man with a gun".
I find that rather refreshing. I commend the valiant unarmed heroes.

Certainly , this was in France where the gun laws are just as you might like them.

There are not any good men with guns , bad ones only.

Bingo
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 23, 2015, 03:25:53 PM
According to Wayne LaPierre there are good men with guns.

If there are only bad men with guns, then guns are what separate bad men with guns and unarmed bad men.

Unarmed bad men are less dangerous.

How do bad men avoid being dangerously armed?
Do these bad men obey the laws and regulations intended to make the good men unarmed?
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 23, 2015, 03:34:46 PM
That would be a "no"
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 23, 2015, 07:36:46 PM
If France did not restrict guns, this would surely happen much more often.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 23, 2015, 07:58:43 PM
How does that address Plane's point about bad men obeying the laws and regulations intended to make the good men unarmed?
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 23, 2015, 11:54:21 PM
If France did not restrict guns, this would surely happen much more often.


   Why would it not happen much less often?

     Giving an ordinary person a firearm doesn't change him into something he isn't already.

       This guy was not a particularly capable terrorist , but he was able to arm himself .

          If the bad guys get guns in spite of the rules , and the good guys obey the rules , then the bad guys will be armed and the good guys not .

            I think this is a good description of this particular situation.

               Doesn't it also describe the more general situation?
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 12:50:26 AM
Yep....pretty much spot on
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 11:40:18 AM
The point is not that one person was able to arm himself. The point is that the more difficult it 9iis to get guns, the fewer people will get then and the fewer people get shot.
Which is evidenced by the much, much MUCH smaller numbers of people who get shot in Western European countries like France.

The more guns are in circulation, the more people wiull get shot. You  cannot change this it is a FACT.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 12:35:52 PM
And yet in this country its a FACT that despite more guns in circulation, violent crime has been DECREASING

You cannot change this, it as a FACT
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 03:05:28 PM
You are about 30 times more likely to be shot in France than in the US.

I do not believe that fewer people are being shot. It could be due to the aging of the population.

If all other things were equal, the fewer the guns, the fewer the people get shot.

YOu want to make us believe that somehow you gun nuts are making us safer, but that is just stupid. It is also not true.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 03:13:52 PM
Fact is, your ongoing verbageabout increased guns increased crime, is debunked by THE FACT, that in this country, despite increased guns, violent crime has been coming down.  That's of course, excluding those areas with the most strictest gun control, reinforcing Plane's point how such restrictions hamper/impeded only the law abiding, while the criminal still gets his AK47 to try shoot and shoot up a train
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 06:35:29 PM
This country is not the world. This country has a much higher number of gun deaths than Western European countries, Australia and Japan, and the reason is the number and availability of guns.

It is stupid to talk about this country as though other countries do not exist and are irrelevant. They are PROOF that the more guns there are, the more people are going to be shot.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 06:43:33 PM
This country is not the world.

Says the fella that continually harps about other country's Government run healthcare efforts, and our need to be like them.  In THIS country however, the FACT remains, that you can not change, that although MORE guns are in distribution, violent crime goes DOWN......which completely torpedos your ongoing less guns nonsense
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 07:09:19 PM
There are many fewer guns owned by Europeans, Japanese, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and Japanese, and the number of gun deaths is MANY FEWER.

That debunks all the crap you spew. Now make a crap sandwich, skewer it with a stick, make a crap smootie in the blender and eat it.

I know I won't be swallowing your crap.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 07:45:15 PM
There are many fewer guns owned by Europeans, Japanese, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and Japanese, and the number of gun deaths is MANY FEWER.

And In THIS country, the FACT remains, that although MORE guns are in distribution, violent crime goes DOWN......which completely torpedos your ongoing less guns nonsense
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 24, 2015, 08:07:27 PM
The point is not that one person was able to arm himself.

Yes this is my point.
That one guy was an evil minded one , a type rarer than one in a million in every country. He was well armed in Belgium and France, of course no law ever conceived was going to reduce the chances that he would get one or more potent weapon.


If you gave a pistol to 90% of all the world , but could successfully leave the worst 10% out of the pistol issue , crime rates would necessarily plummet. Most people are pretty decent .

If instead you armed your worst first , even though the total number of guns were decreased a lot , why would crime rates fall at all?
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 12:41:56 PM
That is absurd logic. Read it again. It makes no sense.

The facts speak for themselves. We are many times more likely to get shot in this country than the French, and it is because there are more guns.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 01:25:31 PM
That is absurd logic. Read it again. It makes no sense.

The facts speak for themselves.

YES, they do......MORE Guns in this country has led to a DECREASE in violent crime
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 02:23:22 PM
This country, this country, this country. blah blah blah yammer yammer yammer yada yade yada.
No matter how many times you blather about this country like it was the only one on the planet, the FACT remains that more guns in the US means vastly more Americans get shot than British, Japanese, Germans, Spaniards and Australians.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 02:47:10 PM
Yea, THIS COUNTRY, as in YEA, FACTS speak for themselves, as in YEA more guns have apparently led to a decrease in violent crime in THIS COUNTRY.....so YEA, you can stick the notion of less guns in the hands of law abiding as a good thing, in your foreign ear
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
You inability to reason is amazing.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 04:14:23 PM
As is your inabilty to accept facts contrary to your already made up partisan mind
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 04:30:16 PM
You think that gun safety statistics are meaningless outside the Us, whereas in reality, they are not.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 04:45:34 PM
I think both facts and common sense speak for themselves.  FACT is that in this country we have a right to firearms.  FACT is that in this country, despite MORE guns, violent crime goes down.  FACT is that in this country, more lives are saved using a gun, than those taken by one

I realize those are inconvenient facts that screw the entire message related to less guns, but those are the facts
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Plane on August 25, 2015, 06:57:38 PM
That is absurd logic. Read it again. It makes no sense.

The facts speak for themselves. We are many times more likely to get shot in this country than the French, and it is because there are more guns.

  You would have to let it make sense to understand it.

    If you took a Germany and saturated it with guns , you would not get an increase in crime , you would get Switzerland.

      The tools of crime are not the cause of crime .
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 07:20:46 PM
The tools of crime are not the cause of crime .

QOTD Material!!
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 26, 2015, 09:58:10 AM
Take away his wrenches and then tell the mechanic to repair your car.

Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 26, 2015, 02:44:02 PM
Take away her firearms and then tell the mother to defend herself from an armed rapest
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 26, 2015, 04:04:49 PM
Take away everyone's firearms and they will have to fight with knives and bludgeons.

The French generally have limited access to guns.

This attack was an anomaly , by which I mean a very rare occurrence. Attacks like this occur in the US about every month or more.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 26, 2015, 04:11:42 PM
You can't take away someone's fundamental constiutional right.  But let's placate your fantasy.....question still remains.....Take away her firearms and then tell the mother to defend herself & daughter from an armed rapest.  Notice where your logic is severely lacking yet?
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 26, 2015, 04:17:13 PM
Let us have a country in which rapists cannot get guns. Japan, for example.

In Japan, even most suicides do not involve guns.

Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 26, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
We'll NEVER have a country where rapists can not illegaly get a gun...unless there were no guns in existance...which ironically, that will NEVER happen as well.  The 2nd amendment is......wait for it.....SETTLED LAW

So, the question remains.....Take away her firearms and then tell the mother to defend herself & daughter from an armed rapest.  Notice again where your logic is severely lacking yet?
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 26, 2015, 06:23:22 PM
No, because in my scenario, no one has a gun and she bops the evildoer on the merrythought with her reticule and calls the constable.

My imagination beats yours every time.
Title: Re: Shooting on a train
Post by: sirs on August 26, 2015, 06:33:54 PM
Your "scenario" is a Communist's/Facist's pipedream, where guns don't exist, except in theory of course in the hands of those the Government controls.  So while she waits for the constable, in utter horror, with her being overpowered by his illegally acquired weapon/gun, getting raped for the next 5-10minutes, her daughter is made to sit and wait her turn

So, in this current reality.....Take away her firearms and then tell the mother to defend herself & daughter from an armed rapest.  Notice again where your logic is severely lacking?

We'll NEVER have a country where rapists, murderers, terrorists, can not illegally get a gun...unless there were no guns in existance...which ironically, that will NEVER happen as well.  The 2nd amendment is......wait for it.....SETTLED LAW