We need more Governors like Arizona Governor Jan Brewer!

[bsb]

I can think of little that has benefited us more then the ability to put ourselves in the shoes of another.

bsb

[bsb]

>>How is it supposed to be that in all the universe I am the evaluator?
How am I qualified to declare all the universe an idiot?
Why can't there be a designer of the universe which is the universe itself and of which I am a part?<<

Where did I say anything about man being the evaluator in the universe, or that men declare the universe to be an idiot? And why can't there just be a universe of which man is a part without some predetermined design involved? If I go up into the Allagash wilderness of northern Maine, am I looking at something that was designed, or something that evolved that way over 1000s of years? Are we designed, or did we evolve to become what we are?

I don't see the work of a designer. I see the results of an evolving process with the pieces being buffeted about by each other, finding solutions at times and leading to the destruction of some of the pieces at other times.

The continent of India was once moving freely until it crashed into the Asian continent and produced the Himalayas. The run off from the Himalayas formed the Mekong River delta of southern Vietnam, and the Red River delta of northern Vietnam. This wasn't designed, it just happened due to the physical laws of the universe, our planet, our neighbouring planets, our sun, and our orbiter the moon. Man took advantage of those deltas to grow food. That's how it works from point of view.  And my job is to live it during the spec of time I have within it.

bsb

[Plane]

....... I see the results of an evolving process with the pieces being buffeted about by each other, finding solutions at times and leading to the destruction of some of the pieces at other times........

bsb

Ok, you see the thoughts of God.

Or what are the thoughts of God supposed to look like?

[Plane]

I can think of little that has benefited us more then the ability to put ourselves in the shoes of another.

bsb

That is a good quote.

[Plane]

That's how it works from point of view.  And my job is to live it during the spec of time I have within it.

bsb

I can't deny you a point of view of your own, you have right to it .

From my POV the smallest part of it and all of it together is such a confluence of extremely unlikely co-incidences that your POV being that it is entirely accidental boggles the mind , ow ow ow...

[Xavier_Onassis]

The original view, taught by St Thomas Aquinas and others, was that the Universe was created by a Perfect Being, eg, God, and therefore it was perfect in every way, because God, being perfect could not or would not create an imperfect universe. The entire universe was created, according to this view, by God as a home for Mankind, who was supposed to live in peace and harmony for all his days. Until the very first couple screwed up. All the imperfections on Earth were the sole result of Adam and Eve making an extremely unwise culinary decision by eating a fruit at the behest of a talking reptile. Really, that is what it says: it is in the book. It may be somewhat less weird than L Ron Hubbard's tale of Lord Xenu, but it is still pretty darn wacky. and it seems to contradict the most logical scientific theories about how the Earth and humans came to exist. 

Now we know that the universe is anything BUT perfect: the Sun has spots, the planets are not perfect spheres, their orbits are not perfect circles, and at least one is retrograde,  the Earth is not at the center of all creation, and entire galaxies  and we must assume, some planets with life on them are being destroyed on a regular basis.

The Universe is not perfect. It is as imperfect as it has to be to continue to exist. If it were any more chaotic, it would self-destruct.

We are free to draw any conclusions we wish about the Creator of the Universe, but the ancient view that he created a perfect universe and we screwed it up on our own planet alone and that they rest of Creation is still perfect, well, that is ever so obviously untrue.

[Plane]

What is imperfect about sunspots?

Do you know why the sun needs spots?

[bsb]

>>your POV being that it is entirely accidental boggles the mind , ow ow ow...<<

Well, it isn't accidental in that if you throw a football (I have the Patriots on my brain right now) it's only going to go so far before it hits the ground. That isn't an accident, that's gravity. Were the laws of the universe in place before there was a universe?  God, or no god, in a way I think you could say they were. Would the laws effecting the explosion of 100,000 nuclear warheads going off simultaneously on planet earth be in place before the event? I would yes they are even though the event has never happened.

While the universe appears chaotic, in fact there is a finite number of causes to a finite number of effects. But, of course, those finite numbers are so large that it seems like the possibilities are endless.

Anyway, getting back to your aching head, I think it is because I don't think man is particularly special that I don't find the accident theory all that difficult to take. It doesn't hurt my head at all. I don't fell like I'm part of some grand design. I feel a lot more like a grand accidentally occurrence that has been worked on through the evolutionary process for thousands of years. I'm very happy with that idea. I have no plans for going anywhere after I die, and I'm fine with that also. If I do happen to however, my bags are packed. I'll enjoy that trip as much as I've enjoyed this one.

bsb

[Amianthus]

Were the laws of the universe in place before there was a universe?  God, or no god, in a way I think you could say they were.

No; they are intricately tied with the universe and don't exist outside of the existence of the universe. The laws of the universe, and time itself, was created in the Big Bang.

[bsb]

>>No; they are intricately tied with the universe and don't exist outside of the existence of the universe. The laws of the universe, and time itself, was created in the Big Bang.<<

Just because gravity may have never existed prior to the big bang doesn't mean that the laws that apply to gravity in this particular universe weren't in theoretical existence. If fact they were, because we wouldn't have gravity if they weren't. Same with time. Just because there may have been no such thing as time at T minus 1, doesn't mean that time in the form of a possibility didn't exist. In fact it did because we wouldn't have time if it weren't possible.

Anything within this universe is not possible. There are only so many things that can happen.

bsb

 

[Xavier_Onassis]

What is imperfect about sunspots?

Do you know why the sun needs spots?
========================================
A perfect Sun would have heat spread evenly across its surface. It would not have spots.

Although I am sure there is a reason for sunspots (such one, some or all of the elements in the Sun causing them by their very nature), I cannot say why the Sun has spots, only (a) that it does and (b) their presence indicates that the Sun is not a perfect celestial body.

Of course, we know that it is doomed to burn itself out at some time in the future, and were it perfect, it would be eternal.

St Thomas Aquinas was a great thinker, but he was wrong about many things regarding the nature of the Universe. His construct was entirely logical, but it has proven to be false.

[Amianthus]

Just because gravity may have never existed prior to the big bang doesn't mean that the laws that apply to gravity in this particular universe weren't in theoretical existence. If fact they were, because we wouldn't have gravity if they weren't.

Gravity, and time as well, are a part of the universe. They are an effect of the curvature of space-time, which does not exist outside of the universe.

[Plane]

Just because gravity may have never existed prior to the big bang doesn't mean that the laws that apply to gravity in this particular universe weren't in theoretical existence. If fact they were, because we wouldn't have gravity if they weren't.

Gravity, and time as well, are a part of the universe. They are an effect of the curvature of space-time, which does not exist outside of the universe.

And if there was a seriously diffrent distribution of mass , lets say that it was all moving very rapidly compared to what there is now , the basic rules might be modified by the circumstance.

The flow of time is adjustable by the presence of great mass or by high accelleration , pretty much equally.

[bsb]

>>Gravity, and time as well, are a part of the universe. They are an effect of the curvature of space-time, which does not exist outside of the universe.<<

Your missing my point. It's my fault I didn't make it clear at the start. I don't mean that the laws existed literally and that things like gravity and time were floating around before the big bang. I mean they existed in theory.

Another example would be if this universe we are part of is the only one, and there was nothing before this universe, the possibility of something happening to create it was there before it actually happened.

bsb

[Amianthus]

Your missing my point. It's my fault I didn't make it clear at the start. I don't mean that the laws existed literally and that things like gravity and time were floating around before the big bang. I mean they existed in theory.

Going by this definition then, every possible combination of "physical laws" exist *in theory* and therefore your argument that "there is a finite number of causes to a finite number of effects" is wrong? You're either wrong on the one side, or the other.

Does not change the fact that nothing within this universe, including gravity and time, existed prior to the big bang; they are all part of this universe, inseparable. If anything exists outside of this universe, it is unknowable.