DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on August 02, 2015, 01:06:23 PM
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The death of Cecil, the black-maned lion killed by an American big-game hunter in Zimbabwe, has unleashed a global storm of Internet indignation. The hunter, Dr. Walter Palmer, a dentist from Minnesota, has been forced into hiding.
On the face of it, the reasons are not hard to discern: In an era of dwindling wildlife, proliferation of threatened species and large-scale poaching of elephants and other beasts, big-game hunting in Africa does not hold the allure it may have had in Teddy Roosevelt’s day. And Cecil was no ordinary cat.
The 13-year-old lion was a star attraction at the Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe, out of which the hunters lured him with a carcass, and he wore a collar by which scientists at the University of Oxford had been tracking him since 2008. It was wrong and, according to the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force, illegal to kill Cecil. Dr. Palmer, who reportedly paid more than $50,000 for the hunt, said he relied on local guides and did not know it was an illegal hunt. An official at the United States Fish and Wildlife Service said the agency is also investigating the case.
Humans are very selective in their attitudes toward threatened species, and obviously Cecil, a beautiful beast, is the beneficiary of very selective attention. And while critics and non-hunters are repelled by the killing of beautiful animals simply for bragging rights, hunters are not the main reason for the decline in the population of African lions — about 30,000 today, down from 200,000 a century ago. The main threat, as to many other animals large and small, is a vanishing habitat. Some hunters argue that they help conservation through their efforts to maintain the habitats of their prey.
These debates will not be ended by Cecil’s cruel death, but maybe something important can come of the public outrage. It should refocus attention on the
I can't say that I would favor extraditing the fugitive dentist to Zimbabwe, but his case depends on how much he understood about who he was paying and how those who took his money deceived him. It is at least as sporting in my book for a dentist from Minneapolis to hunt a lion with a bow and arrow as a teenage Masai warrior to hunt a lion with a spear. No one actually kills lions for food, although I am sure parts of lions are eaten.
The dentist gets a trophy perhaps, the Masai warrior boy gets to become a Masai warrior man. I do not think there are any Masai in Zimbabwe, but killing large dangerous beasts has always been a big deal in every society. There used to be lions in Europe, but they all were killed.
I think that outlawing lion hunts is perhaps justified. It is not like anyone NEEDS to slay a lion or get the "Big Five" trophies.
If the dentist were hunting grizzlies in Alaska, that would be less likely to cause scandal, but no less mortal for the grizzly... or perhaps the dentist.
I an an anti-dentite, as Seinfeld would say, because dentists have managed to make it almost impossible to get rid of a toothache without having to go to a dentist, who always, after grotesquely overcharging for a filling or a pulled tooth, then comes up with a "plan" to extract more boat and Jaguar payments from the hapless consumer. Dentists have made it illegal to obtain ANTIBIOTICS to stop a toothache for their own profit.
It is fortunate that they cannot get away with this outside the US. Everyone who goes abroad should stock up on antibiotics unless they want to be fucked over by some damned dentist.
I think a dentist who accumulates so much money from people's pain and gum disease that he can pay $55,000, plus airfare to shoot a lion in Africa does not deserve any respect from me. But then again, neither does Joseph Mugabe, who is guilty of even more evil than any dentist I can imagine.
The good thing is that Zimbabwe has eliminated lion hunting licenses.
many species that are in danger, particularly elephants, rhinos and other beasts being destroyed for their tusks, horns and other parts. President Obama was right on his African trip to forgo the usual safari and instead to announce new legal measures to curtail the transport and sale of elephant ivory in the United States.
The fury over Cecil’s death should also prompt some soul-searching among hunters who pursue African game, a large number of whom are well-to-do Americans. In one particularly dreadful practice called “canned” hunting, private ranches raise lions purely to trot them out to be killed by “hunters” for trophies.
Australia has banned the importation of trophies from “canned” hunts, and Botswana for one has banned lion hunting (Zambia, however, lifted its ban on lion and leopard hunting in May). Such measures could help reduce the kills, but the survival of many species will require far more shared responsibility than nations and communities are currently willing to accept.
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I think a dentist who accumulates so much money from people's pain
typical bullshit logic...probably from a liberal
who never would complain about Hillary speaking fees
my dentist has made tons of money from me
but it's my own damn fault for eating all those sweets
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Hillary's speaking fees are not at all the same as dentist's charges.
No one NEEDS to hear Hillary speak. When people are in pain, they DO need a dentist.
Just like no one NEEDS to watch a football game or see a film. So I do not complain about what actors or athletes are paid. They serve a rather minor function in society and we probably could get along without the NBA, the NFL or MGM or United Artists pretty well.
I do not think that I could ever conceivably need to hear Hillary speak. Hillary can charge whatever she wishes, but her speaking is not essential to anyone.
My dislike of dentists transcends politics. I have had some decent dentists over the years, but all but one were students in dental colleges.
Private practice dentists I have met in Miami I have not liked at all, and have never seen any of them more than once.
It is also true that regularly scheduled dental work actually causes you to have more toothaches and cavities. The body has a way of combating dental plaque problems and dental cleanings are like fake fingernails: the more work you have done, the more work you will need to have done.
I remember that when I lived in West Virginia, I had a filling fall out, and it really, really hurt. None of the four dentists would give me an appointment, but neither would they give me a prescription for antibiotics. So it hurt like hell for about a week, and eventually I found a dentist 40 miles away that gave me a prescription and fixed the filling.
Incidentally, I had another filling fall out about 12 years ago, and I took some penicillin I imported from Spain, washed it out really good with peroxide and mouthwash and put a temporary filling there that I bought in a drugstore. Something called Dentemp Custom, And so far, it has never bothered me again. The last time I went to a dentist, he proposed a crown, and made an appointment to install it for some outrageous amount. So I called him a week later and cancelled, and I have never seen an American Dentist since. That was nine years ago. I did have some dentures repaired in the DR and it cost me about $90.
Do it yourself dentistry is a not always a solution, but can be a solution some of the time.
As for the dentist who shot Cecil, it will be interesting to see if he actually pops up and if they will actually extradite him to Zimbabwe.
I am pretty sure if someone the US did not like were to hide himself in Zimbabwe, they would apply seriously pressure on Mugabe's government to comply, but I somehow doubt that it will work the other way.
I do not have a position on this, but I am laying in a supply of popcorn.
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Hillary's speaking fees are not at all the same as dentist's charges. No one NEEDS to hear Hillary speak.
When people are in pain, they DO need a dentist.
Although I totally agree NO ONE needs to hear Hillary....lol
Are you actually arguing that Doctors of Dentistry in the United States should not be allowed to be well paid?
(plus how do we know this dentist is not making big money from investments apart from dentistry?)
You think we need the nanny-state to implement "income control" of dentists?
It is also true that regularly scheduled dental work actually causes you to have more toothaches and cavities. The body has a way of combating dental plaque problems and dental cleanings are like fake fingernails: the more work you have done, the more work you will need to have done.
Total bullshit.
Preventive dental care pays dividends.
Only fringe elements would proclaim less regular dental checkups is better for oral dental health.
Unattended dental problems can and do development into larger dental problems.
I used to postpone seeing my dentist and ended up with major problems.
Now I get regular cleanings/x-rays, and gum prevention treatments
and because of this my last few years have been free of any major dental problems.
But really if you don't believe in active preventive dentistry...I don't give a shit....2EachHisOwn.
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It not only pays dividends, it makes boat payments, Lexus payments and very occasional large sums to hunt wild lions.
Dentists of course see themselves as actual serious medical professionals. If you see the dentist several times a year, yeah, well maybe you won't have problems. But then you might. Note that not one damned thing a dentist ever does is guaranteed. Mt Goodwrench at least had a warranty.
Dentists use pain to profit off of their patients. The same is true of optometrist.
My Medicare plan suggested that I go to an optometrist for an eye exam. He was a jolly fellow and had the latest equipment, so he did not do the annoying thing where a machine blows at your eyeball. So he told me I had good eyesight for my age andf gave me a prescription. I even got a pair of glasses. They broke in about a week. I have only occasionally had the reading glasses (that is all the Rx I need) break. They cost $5 and last at least two years. The guy also had a catalog of frames that I could buy if I paid more. The cheapest titanium frames were over $250. Now I know that titanium is not rare, so I checked prices online for frames, and after fiddling about for an hour or so found Titanium frames with my Rx for $45. Delivered. With my prescription. So I bought them and they are indeed great. Medicare paid the optometrist $75 for my visit, so why is the markup so hideously high?
Because that is the nature of capitalism. Keep the customer ignorant and gouge him all you can. My new glasses took 4 days to arrive, and they are very durable and did not have a Made in China label, either.
Capitalists LOATHE competition. I never buy anything that is relatively lightweight without checking the price online. It is is relatively heavy, I check Craig's List for a good used whatever. I am very, very rarely disappointed. I have never bought a new refrigerator, stove, or car. Computers, fortunately are lightweight. I did buy a good used one once, and it lasted me for three years. It still works, but it wouldn't run Windows 7.
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It not only pays dividends, it makes boat payments, Lexus payments and very occasional large sums to hunt wild lions.
yes it's really pretty simple
people that solve complex problems tend to make good money
people that do things that the masses can do usually make less money
Because that is the nature of capitalism. Keep the customer ignorant and gouge him all you can.
Ha Ha...you don't know what you are talking about.
Less than an hour ago I called a client to tell them we most likely could not do something they requested.
We could have attempted it and made a nice profit....but I knew we could not do the job.
So instead of "playing dumb" and attempting and charging them for the attempt...
I called and told them I didn't want to waste their money.
That builds loyalty....treat people the way you want to be treated and it's a win/win.
About a month a go I booked a trip with a fishing guide
The guide called me the other day and said
"I cant take your money....the fish are not biting...lets reschedule for next Spring".
I appreciated his honesty...
You need to quit painting with such a broad brush and equating capitalism with dishonesty
Capitalists LOATHE competition.
Capitalism IS COMPETITION!
I am a capitalist and I love competition.
I say to competition....BRING IT ON!
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Bully for you!
Tell the generic drug makers, some of them have quadrupled their prices recently.
There are a lot of medicines that you cannot get without a prescription, and there is no reason for this.
Potassium Chloride, a salt substitute prescribed to people taking "water" pills, cannot be sold in the US in pill form.
It is a common chemical KCl, which needed no serious research and development.
It is pretty expensive as a pill. It is available in any supermarket as a granular salt substitute for a fraction of the price.
Why do they do this? To make big bucks. When I asked a pharmacist to sell me KCl over the counter, he looked at me like I had asked for heroin. "That's a prescription drug!", he said. "It's part of the cocktail they use for lethal injections!"
Laws are used to force people to pay vastly more than is necessary all the time.
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There are a lot of medicines that you cannot get without a prescription, and there is no reason for this.
Laws are used to force people to pay vastly more than is necessary all the time.
Laws (GVT) forces people to pay more!
Crony Capitalism sucks.
"Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism"
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A survey of the people and companies that donate to PACs and political candidates will show that a huge majority of them want some sort of special favor to bolster their business.
How about this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II)
$143 million for one airplane. I wonder if Lockheed Martin donates money so they will but even more of these things.
And it is not like we do not have airplanes that do nearly everything this one does.
They have recently ordered ten of them for one of our country's THREE air forces?
Why do we need THREE airforces? Last I heard, we only have one atmosphere.
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The bigger the gvt....the more power gvt has....the more people will want to buy influence by any means.
Less gvt equals less people attempting to by influence
This ain't exactly brain surgery!
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The bigger the gvt....the more power gvt has....the more people will want to buy influence by any means.
BINGO.....isn't ironic that the very thing they support facilitates the very thing they claim to abhor
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What I particularly abhor is inequality, and that is what unregulated capitalism produces.
If you allow corporations and fatcats to buy elections, all we will have is even more crony capitalism.
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There is no right to financial equality. Government has no business trying to force such an act, that can never be accomplished in a capitalist economy. You can abhor it all you want, but that's not your concern, and worse, its not your business to try and take away someone else has earned, to give it to someone else who hadn't, just to make you feel better
And when you push for bigger and bigger Governmet, you get exactly that...more and more fat cats and lobbyiests, buying their little corner of everything
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No, you don't. Not if you do it right. No one buys elections in Sweden.
There are ombudsmen that advocate for the consumer, and they have actual power.
Government works best when of is Republican't-Free.
No country in Europe spends even a fraction of the time and money we do in this country.
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Sweden is NOT America. Sweden does NOT have a U.S. Constitution. The bigger Government becomes the more influnece that can be bought by your abhorent "rich folk". And because of the expanse, the easier it is to hide, within the mass of bureacracy
Precisely that which you supposedly despise, is made far worse by the size of Government you push for
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What I particularly abhor is inequality
BINGO!
That is the crux.
I love that some people are super-talented and excel beyond all others.
The world benefits from world changers.
People that push the envelope and innovate are priceless.
People are not equal in talents.
I love and realize that some like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison,
George Washington Carver, Sir Isaac Newton, etc...are not created equal.
Their impact is unlike others....there can never be, nor should there be equality of results.
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The problem is not that everyone is not exactly equal. The problem is that so many lack the basic essentials. One third of the children in Miami Dade County are below. the poverty line.
There are very rich people in Scandinavia as well, but there are very few homeless people, single mothers raising their kids in a car. In this country, there are many who will never get a decent education, not even enough to eat.
You will never be one of these bazillionaires, sirs.
There are millions of children who will never be able to demonstrate their talents. Carver was never wealthy. Edison would probably be unable to use his talents today, because he would not be capable 0f becoming an engineer.
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Edison invented what modern engineering is about, if he was born more recently he would be called Dean Kamen.
G.W.Carver was not attempting to get wealthy, he was attempting to do good things with education. True this didn't make him wealthy , but he is a success story .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dumpling_Island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_Carver
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Liberal logic: If you shoot an animal, YOU are evil.. but.. If you shoot a human, GUNS are evil.
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Well summed up, C
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What simpletons!
Once again, there is no bingo.
If you shoot an animal for food, that is normally not any problem. If you shoot an animal for some other reason, you are wasteful.
It depends on the animal, some animals are invasive species, like rats and perhaps raccoons.
If you shoot an animal that is a member of an endangered species for sport, then you are unwise, and the government would be wiser not to permit you to do it.
If you shot a gun and kill a human for sport, then YOU are evil and should never have been permitted to own that gun.
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Like that bit of rationalization?..."Normally not a problem". Not to mention NO ONE, not even the NRA supports evil people having access to firearms. But at least we're making some headway....we have xo rightfully applying the evil dislcaimer to the thug homicidal maniac shooting the gun, and not the gun itself. That's at least, some progress
Not to mention, the "bingo" reference was made by Cu4 regarding the twisted crux the left has with the whole notion of equlity/inequality, and had nothing to do with the gun tangent ::)
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Now you are deflecting. Or engaged in some form of mental masturbation.
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More projection. Get back to us when you actually have a serious response or question.....with the pertinent disclaimer that of being serious
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If you shoot an animal for food, that is normally not any problem.
If you shoot an animal for some other reason, you are wasteful.
XO I am not really a hunter, although I might try to shoot a wild hog this winter.
However I have heard that organizations like Ducks Unlimited and deer hunters
are actually good for the populations because they keep them from over-populating and starving to death.
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I have nothing at all against people hunting ducks, wild boar, wild geese, deer and other animals that are not endangered if they actually eat them, or perhaps shoot pest animals like rats or raccoons. Hunters that are careless tend to shoot themselves or one another. There is a Darwin Effect occasionally.
Since natural predators like wolves and cougars are extinct in many parts of the country, they probably do maintain a balance. Of course, the natural predators eliminate mostly the weaker animals, while someone hunting with a gun may not.
The problem with this dentist is that he almost certainly was aware that the $55,000 he paid to hunt a lion would not go to the Zimbabwean government. That country is extremely corrupt. As for his hunting not being properly sporting, it was no less sporting than teenage Masai in Tanzania hunting lions with a spear.
Luring the lion off the reserve with a carcass was not very sporting. I imagine that if a Masai had a friend with a Land Rover he might try it.
Of course, a Minneapolis dentist does not really have a need to satisfy his ego by killing a lion. He does not have to face growing up with the entire tribe thinking he is a sissy. Once a park hangs a name on a particular animal, as they did with Cecil, then hunting it is clearly a big no-no.
By the way, Zimbabwe was once Rhodesia, named for CECIL Rhodes. I suspect that was where they got the name. One might expect a Zimbabwean lion to have a Shona or Ndebele name.
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i did a quick look and everything seems to point this was an illegal hunt so the issue is not about the hunt but how it went about. from the very start it sounded illegal to me. the lion was living in a reservation that didn`t give me the impression they do this often.
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Kimba...I don't understand why people enjoy killing what I call "grand animals".
Hell unless under attack I could never shoot an elephant, a moose, a bear, a tiger, a rhino, etc...
But if an animal is not endangered then I am not opposed to people being able to hunt.
If not endangered and it's a wild animal...what can of worms would that open to the control freaks?
What next I can't fish for large-mouth bass?
(http://cdn.wideopenspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/hxv09.gif)
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Africa needs a reason for dentists to tour and leave behind a few thousand dollars.
Hunting is possibly a good employer , and a good reason for conservation of game animals.
The big threat to the survival of most of these animals is how useless they are to the local people , imagine how much an elephant seems a pest when it is eating the crop you planted for yourself, or what a bad neighbor a pride of Lions can be.
But suppose that tourists will pay you a months pay if you lead them to get a good look at a heard of elephants , or a years pay for a group of you if you help him shoot a Lion.
What we have here is a good reason to support wise game management, also the funds that wise management requires.
If this can't be done , what is a good alternative for the people there?
Perhaps they should eradicate all the handicaps to efficient farming the way we almost did.
There was a few decades when Deer were absent from Georgia, the deer we have now were transplanted from Virginia , by hunters.
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We do that here in the bay area to control the deer population in one of our islands. It really annoys the animal rights folks.
Wild pig is like rabbit totally legal to hunt to stop farm destruction.
What I truely hate is the opposition to hunt coyotes and cougers in our area that the animals rights nuts say are harmless. I grew up believing once they kill they lose they fear of killings people. Its said todays thats a myth. I say bullshit. I know tiger that go toward explosion knowing that sound equal a dinner bell.
I always believe hunters has an important role in our society im just against idiots
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As I said, I am not against hunting animals that are not threatened with extinction, especially if they are eaten.
Tourists that take pictures of large animals are better than tourists that kill them in Africa. African countries should decide their own policies and enforce them. They do not tell us what to do with our buffalo, I don't think we have the right to tell them what to so with their lions.
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It seem its not locally sanctioned so our outrage has not real opposition
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The problem with the US government is not its size, it is its inefficiency. Sweden has far less corruption with regard to its national resources than the US.
There are a lot of things we could learn from Sweden. Perhaps there are a lot of things they could learn from us as well.
Waving a flag and hollering "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" does not make us number one.
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SIZE BREEDS INEFFICIENCY. .....BREEDS COMPLACENCY. ......BREEDS BUREAUCRACY. ......BREEDS GREATER ABILITY TO BURY/HIDE NEFARIOUS ACTIVITY
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The problem with the US government is not its size, it is its inefficiency. Sweden has far less corruption with regard to its national resources than the US.
If there is a spectrum would Sweden be near the blue end and Haiti near the red end, would the US be more green or yellow?
I would guess that the levels of corruption that people tolerate would be more dependent on tradition and culture than on the government and its rules.
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Haiti is nowhere near the corruption one finds in Angola, Equatorial Guinea or Nigeria.
Swedes are extremely intolerant of corruption and unfairness. But in return, a much higher percentage of the people enjoy a better quality of life than Americans. The worst things about Sweden are due to geography: it is cold, and it is rather small and has less variety in scenery than the US. Swedes who come here to live are generally bored or simply running away from family problems. And they are rather few.
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The bigger, more costly, more complicated the Government, only the big, more powerful, well connected, can handle & manipulate it, to their benifit of course. ....while the rest of us get steamrolled.
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Corporations are a far worse threat to the people of this country than the Government.
Some company starts fracking near your home and you get flammable gas and/or fracking fluid coping out of your faucets, then government (the courts and the police) are your only recourse. You identity gets stolen and you get charged for stuff someone else has ordered on your account...if not for the law (the government) you are screwed.
You get a huge traffic ticket you cannot pay, and the county sells your debt to a collection agency and as a result you get jailed and lose your job. That is a corrupt government and a private corporation working in cahoots.
The larger and more powerful corporations get, the larger and more powerful government must be to protect you from abuse.
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Not only do corporations not have the power to mandate how you are to live your life, they have no more than a fraction of a fraction of the power that the Government has. Corporations can't tax you, if you don't comply. Corporations can try to fine you, at which point, YOU CAN LEAVE, said corporation, or no longer support said corporation. You can't leave the control of the Government
And what's worse is the point being made, that the bigger the Government is made to be, the less say and ability middle & lower class folk have, and the MORE POWER that wealthy individuals & corporations have in influencing policy that directly benefits them, while screwing the rest of us.
Bigger Government = Crony Capitalism at its worst
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That is total bullshit. Corporations control every damned thing you do.
Now they want to buy the government as well.
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Corporations can do bad things ,so can government agencies.
You are going to get nailed to the wall by the side that you give too much trust.
Our founders had plenty of experience with big government and made it possible for peaceful people to fight for change in government bloodlessly.
Regulation of companies by a government of the people is a good idea.
Lets make it work.
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The British government in colonial times was not very big, but it was based on the premise that the King was sent by God to rule any way he wished, and that the subjects should obey him or be jailed or killed.
Commercial interests, such as the official importers of tea and other items used the British government to force the colonists to buy tea imported by them rather than the Dutch.
The Boston Tea Party was an attack on a British company, but it was seen as an attack on His Majesty.
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So there was less demarcation between company and government?
I know that some of the big companies had royal charters and noblemen in the administration, but there was an emergent merchant class that was allowing a lot of commoners to make good.
This might be seen as progress if contrasted with previous times rather than contrasting with later times.
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Members of the British peerage often established their own businesses and when necessary, rented soldiers to defend them.
The British nobility was given very favored treatment in their businesses if they sucked up to the King. Some thought that any sort of business other than renting out their ancestral lands to peasants was beneath their station, and allowed their managers to establish businesses and run then for a fee.
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Some thought that any sort of business other than renting out their ancestral lands to peasants was beneath their station, and allowed their managers to establish businesses and run then for a fee.
Huh?
I guess that even for a Duke it helps to have some imagination.
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Innovation is pretty much the opposite of tradition.
Tradition is what kept the nobility going for centuries.
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That is total bullshit. Corporations control every damned thing you do.
No they don't. Government does however, cemented with the healthcare takeover
Now they want to buy the government as well.
IT'S ALREADY BEEN BOUGHT....THAT'S THE BLOODY POINT. And the bigger Government is allowed to get, the more that "the rich" and corporations can peddle their power and influence
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The strategy to prevent corporations from taking over the government is not going to be solved by electing Republican'ts. They ARE the military industrial complex.
No Republican't running has said one word against any corporation, not even the too big to fail banks.
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Corporations aren't the problem here
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Corporations and their peddling of bogus derivatives and other crap were the major cause of the 2008 Depression. The too big to fail banks were bailed out with taxpayer money and they are still too big to fail. Big Coal and Big Oil are ruining the atmosphere, Big Pharma is robbing sick people blind. Hospital corporations will not reveal the price of procedures to the patient before the procedure is performed, so there can be no competition. Check cashing stores are charging more interest than the Mafia.
Military contractors are bilking the public with multimillion dollar weapons and aircraft that do not work with huge cost overruns. Big Timber is clear cutting national parks.
The list of corporations being the problem is endless.
And all you want to do is rant about Benghazi, Hillary's choice of e mail providers and women voluntarily donating fetal tissue for research to benefit the sick.
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Sorry, not going to let you try to re-write history. The "Depression" had prescious little to do with corporations, and far more to do with Government trying to mandate home owndership, that then directly led to the housing bubble burst. All they while propping up these "too big to fail" organizations, there-by solidifying their influence and power.
And the BIGGER the Government is allowed to get, the MORE power & influence they can peddle, at the expense of everyone else
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I know what happened because I read, and you do not because what you read is CRAP.
Banks gave bogus mortgages and then at the same time told their investors that they were a great deal while they were selling them short.
They did this because Rebublican't Phil Gramm buggered the laws that banned banks from selling mortgages.
Everyone with a brain knows what happened, but you, with only crap between your ears, do not.
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Sorry, what depression occured was 85% Government caused & 15% other. Banks gave mortgages to folks they had no business giving mortgages to, because the Fed told them to, with the indirect threat of their banking abilities being thoroughly reigned in, by the FDIC & Federal Reserve, if they didn't fully comply...with the added wink that Freddie & Fannie had their back. So, given the green light to go willy nilly, they did......and the rest is HISTORY. Prescious little had to do with anything Gramm
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Banks were not forced to give mortgages to the jobless and indigent, don't be an idiot.
The incentive was the huge commissions paid to those who peddled these mortgages and derivatives to fools who peddled them to even more ignorant fools.
This was allowed because Phil Gramm (R-TX) made it possible for banks to do this.
The too big to fail banks are still too big to fail.
So far as I can see, the ONLY candidate who would do something effective to break them up would be Bernie Sanders.
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Never said "Jobless" or "Indigent". I made it clear that it was mortgages to those who had no business trying to take on a mortgage. It started under Clinton, and was exacerbated under Bush. And when the GOP saw the red flags, the Dems circled the wagons around Freddie & Fannie...and the rest is history
NO DEMOCRAT is going to limit Government's growth. And the BIGGER the Government is allowed to get, the MORE power & influence the the uber rich and corporations can peddle, at the expense of everyone else
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No Republican't has ever made the government smaller. Not one. Many have made it more inefficient and unresponsive, though.
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Perhaps now you'll grasp I'm not some coolaide drinking republican, as you're right, they haven't made nary a move at shrinking Government....merely words to that effect. At least that's what they campaign on. The Dems campaign on BIGGER Government, which leads to even greater levels of horrid inefficiency & responsiveness.....not to mention the main point being made here, in that the bigger the Government, the more power that the uber rich & corporations can peddle their influence, and get away with it
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Think of it this way: if the only thing that will stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun, then the only thing that will stop an evil corporation is a more powerful government.
It does not have to be bigger to have more power: It just needs better laws and the power to enforce them.
The Republicant's have been nattering about smaller government for decades and all they have done is make it weaker and less competent at defending the people from corporations. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, OleBush, Juniorbush have excelled at preventing government regulators from regulating.
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That could apply if this were a war, but being that this is just the 2 of them feeding each other, it doesn't work. Corporations are not defacto evil, regardless of how "big" they are. However, they feed on bigger and bigger government. The bigger the government, the more power they're able to peddle
We have laws, AND THE POWER TO ENFORCE THEM....but when the government decides its going to enforce some laws and ignore others, you have a dysfunctional government, not one of the people, but one of the well connected. You also have the makings of an oppressive regime. And the bigger the Government, the more oppressive it becomes.
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The government of Sweden is not oppressive. The government of Denmark is not oppressive. The worst thing they make anyone do is sort their trash.
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We're not Sweden or Denmark, nor are either a massively growing out of control bureaucracy
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You know nothing about Sweden, Denmark or this country. You are not to be taken seriously, and I do not.
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Lol......priceless
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Priceless does not describe your opinions.
The proper word is "worthless".
If the US enacted the sort of ombudsmen citizen advocates that Sweden has, our government would work far better. There are many features that are used in Scandinavia that would work well here.
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And their Governments are a mere fraction of the size of ours. The bigger the Government, the more power and influence the uber rich and corporations can peddle at the expense of everyday middle class. That's just a fact of current reality
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What is the definition of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae?
They are corporations , but they are government founded and mandated .
The idea to make mortgages easier to achieve seems like a good one , but the results were not that simple.
If there were no Fanny and Freddie, there would be a tighter limit on the number and quality of loans on home collateral, and the market would have less fragility.
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Fannie Mar and Freddie Mac worked pretty well until Sen, Phil Gramm managed to revoke a prohibition on banks buying and selling mortgages and derivatives. Bogus mortgages were not sole because the banks feared the government, they were sold because those peddling them for the banks got millions in commissions.
Deregulation was the cause of the last Depression.
Reregulation and breaking up the huge banks is the way to prevent it from happening again.
But all they are doing is blathering about where and if blood is coming out of Megyn Kelly.
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(http://s18.postimg.org/d9d5vt33t/Zebra.jpg)
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Gary was designed by God to be Cecil's lunch. Tough shit, Gary.
I find it strange that no one seems to know where the dentist is.