DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Stray Pooch on June 15, 2010, 02:44:39 AM
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I seldom post here - or even read here - much anymore. It's pretty easy to explain why. The tournament of minds that was the purpose of this site has degenerated into a tournament of the mindless.
The reason I enjoy debate is because I learn from it - and I get to pontificate about my own views. That gives me both an ego boost and a way to sort out and organize my own thoughts. I have on a few occasions been paid for publishing essays based on ideas i hashed out here. I have had my horizons expanded, my ideals tested and my opinions refined over the last several years between here and PIC, but the moments of enlightenment are sandwiched between incessant muscle-flexing, insult-tossing and blithering profanity-laced nonsense. What in the world is the point of all of this mindlessness among so many who have such excellent minds?
Is arguing over whether we should use ethnic slurs or stereotypes in any way conducive to actual exchange of intelligent ideas? Is the use of those devices helpful in any way in coming to an understanding of the world? I am in the process of re-reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" right now. Pirsig makes some pretty profound arguments about looking at both sides of perception (in this case classical versus romantic views) and how ultimately each is necessary. Are the techniques of debate that seem to be predominant on this site in any way advancing that kind of mutual sharing and understanding? What's the point?
At the same time, I'm teaching the Old Testament, reading "The Dream Palace of the Arabs" by Fouad Ajami and trying to reconcile my children's lifestyle choices with my view of eternal law. That's a helluva lot of mental processing. I could use a place where I can expend a little creative energy instead of just absorbing information - and at its best this place combines both. But at its worst, it presents a barrage of unseemly, uninspired and unimportant grudge matches. Is this really what we come here for? Why? Why don't we just kick puppies or beat up our pillows at night and be done with it? What's the point?
I understand that debate gets intense, and we all know I've fired my own live rounds on this range, but this isn't a skirmish, it's an ongoing firefight. I am equally offended by BSB's use of the term "kike" and MT's "Amerikkka" references but I am not going to insist either be censored, nor am I going to retaliate in kind. If someone wants to start a thread trashing Mormons I may respond, if I think it appropriate or potentially valuable - or if it just touches a particular nerve and my sugar is high - but I will respond in the moment, not throw an ultimatum out there to delete the thread or face some kind of rhetorical Mormon jihad. What's the point?
If half of the posts on this site are ad hominem attacks on other posters (and I suspect that estimate is low) then why bother posting them at all? My ego is as big as anyone's here but I'm not going to waste my flagging intellectual energy on proving I'm as bad-ass as some other poster. Generally speaking, I'm not. I get pissed but I don't have the stomach for hours of negativity and pointless deutero-debating (although I realize that's what this post is). I think some of the views expressed on here - many in fact - are mindless drivel, but I don't think that the people posting are mindless. We are just throwing intellectual tantrums instead of tryng to communicate with others in some kind of sensible fashion. What's the point?
My old high school was a great place to learn in 1975. Unfortunately, today it is plagued with high crime rates, high teenage pregnancy rates, high drug use rates and very low academic performance. We are discussing a 35 year reunion. Nobody has any interest in going to the building as part of that. It's not the same place. I sometimes feel that way when I check in here. I know that there is substantive discussion going on somewhere in here, but finding it is like navigating a minefield. I like chocolate, but if I have to dig through manure to find it I'm really not interested. The manure won't taste any better for the addition of the chocolate, but the chocolate will certainly taste worse.
It's tough, I know, to avoid a response when somebody lobs a grenade at you, but it would both elevate the debate and reduce the incidence of mud-wrestling if we could do so. I get very depressed when I check in, which I only do when I am bored anymore. I'd like to spend more time exchanging ideas and less exchanging insults. Otherwise, what's the point?
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Pooch, you couldn't be more right :-\
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I read your post Pooch but I couldn't find anything other then your ego.
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I have read Pirsig's Zen and the Art five times now, and agree that it is an very thought-provoking book. The same is true for his later book, Lila, which deals more with the origins of US politics through the years )(and sailing up the Hudson River).
I have no idea why BSB and MT are feuding. It makes no sense to me at all.
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What's the difference? The issues still get discussed, by anyone who wants to discuss them, with anyone worth discussing them with.
If you feel a poster's too offensive and/or obnoxious to bother with, blow him off, don't bother with him. No rule that you HAVE to debate with someone who, in your opinion, is just a jerk.
As far as the insults are concerned, BSB must have some need to piss me off that's satisfied with "Kike" and I must have some need to piss off all the war-mongers and racists in this group by spelling "America" with three K's. It stands for something in my POV, just like "Kike" stands for something in his. It's certainly not the main focus of either of our activities here, but it's a part - - in some ways an enjoyable part - - of the debate for me. But I can see it's not for everyone.
Pooch, I'll be honest with ya - - I enjoy reading your posts, take 'em all seriously, agree with virtually none of them, and wish you would drop in here more often. But in reality - - this is a debating club that does get a lot more abuse of good debating rules than a real debating club would allow. (I'm pleading guilty as charged before any fingers start pointing at me.) It's not exactly a home for shrinking violets. It is what it is. I am also annoyed by the use of ad hominem attacks to avoid the discussion of substantive issues (as IMHO happened in the medevac thread) but that doesn't mean you can't find solid substantive debate anywhere in here.
So I'll just close with the hope that you'll manage somehow to overlook all our imperfections and (holding your nose?) drop in here more often to weigh in on issues that are of interest to you, and hopefully, to some of us as well. Its always a pleasure to hear from you.
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Pretty transparent backpedaling there, Tee
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Learn to use camouflage correctly. Pick the right pattern for the environment you'll be using it in. Realize that while camouflage can't make you invisible it can break up your outline so that you'll blend into your environment. Once you enter enemy territory limit your movements. No camouflage can overcome movement. The human brain naturally alerts to movement. That's the way we're wired. By staying still, and using the right camouflage pattern, I've had enemy soldiers walk within arms length of me and never know I was there.
Pooch, you need to update your camouflage, and limit your movements. Remember, once you're compromised, your mission has failed.
The proper use of camouflage: http://www.clipartgallery.com/government/military/people/soldiers_camoflauge.jpg (http://www.clipartgallery.com/government/military/people/soldiers_camoflauge.jpg)
;D
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This thread is getting too fucking weird for me.
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Pooch is bright, educational, a good writer, and everything nice...although I don't
always agree with him either...I miss his wisdom...but there is some part of me that also says
he is like the person that doesn't vote yet complains about government. Sure Pooch claims/implies
he would drop in more often if everything was "nice and pretty"....I really wonder if that's true?
Maybe Pooch should be part of the solution instead just complaining about the "good ole days".
I think this place would be better served with his input and commentary....but that's his call....it
isn't just 3DHS that has some ugly political incidents....it's the world today baby....just yesterday
we have a US Congressman grabbing and slapping at a student that simply asked "Congressman
so do you support the President's agenda?". The political headlines are full of just as much
non-sense...Sarah Palin's boobs?....Nancy Pelosi's facelifts?....To pretend that sometimes politics
is not going to get heated....sometimes cause people to says things they may regret later....sometimes
hurt people's feelings is not realistic....3DHS is not and in my mind should not be like a prim & proper high
school debate team....some will claim...we have lost membership mainly because of the day to day
conduct of frequent posters....I don't buy it....I think the reason we don't have more activity is
because 3DHS is an unknown in a huge sea of the internet. Sure some old posters have left
for various reasons....time constraints, new obligations, bored, mad, frustrated, banned, whatever....
but in my opinion the main reason we don't see more activity is because 3DHS is an unknown. Of
course 3DHS isnt going to be everyone's "cup of tea"....they would prefer a perfect list of debaters
with no "warts".....they would prefer a place with no personality...again thats their call....but this place
has something special or we wouldn't all be returning everyday. We just need to "recruit" a few people
that enjoy the "heat in this kitchen" that like some craziness. If we could all just recruit two people to
join and become regular posters it would help invigorate this place.
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Cu4, to be bluntly honest, I'm not sure how much more Pooch could be "part of the solution". You believe that Pooch simply posting more often, will bring the likes ot Tee, BsB, and the pissing matches associated with them, under a more controlled "stream"? Yes, the saloon is greatly more fun to read, if he's posting, but that won't change the efforts by others. At least not from what I've historically seen.
No one wants to "squelch" a person's POV or repress that which passionately burns inside. Pooch just believes, as do I, though obviously don't practice what I preach near enough, that we be mature adults in how we voice our passion and POV. Notice how I've tried to get Tee to enter in to a better debate mode, but now we see that its no longer about my or Prince's calling him out on his less than truthful ranting romps, now its just that we're supposedly jerks, while he responds in jerk-like spades to other posters, while BsB, for some twisted reason, starts jerking off about me, despite my being a huge supporter of his war effort and being in our military.
Point being, Pooch IS part of the solution, if we were to listen to what he's trying to say. His merely posting more often isn't it. It's we listening & learning.
IMHO
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I like to read all kinds of opinions . it lets us knows whats out there.
we had a guy here who was a extreme homophobe and talked about how aids came from gays who can`t leave monkeys in africa alone.
I check and that`s actually a common thought with alot of homophobes
believe or not but he let us know how homophobes think of gays.
everything here is educational here.
I do wish were talk more math & science, but that`s up to the news
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Cu4, to be bluntly honest, I'm not sure how much more Pooch could be "part of the solution".
You believe that Pooch simply posting more often, will bring the likes ot Tee, BsB, and the
pissing matches associated with them, under a more controlled "stream"?
SIRS.....we have different views.....but thats ok.
To me Pooch is not part of anything....solution or problem....because he is not here.
Pooch has made his decision..fine...but to pop in every 6 months & cry about it...just seems rather lame.
Instead of complaining about the weeds in the picture..
grow some flowers to lessen the weeds being the focal point!
Who cares if a "pissing match" is part of a bigger picture?
Quit moaning and just try and make the picture bigger!
Drown out the weeds with flowers!
If everybody was like Pooch & had already given-up...well we wouldn't be here today!
You think you're not going to run into a few nuts in life?
You're dreaming if ya think everybody is gonna be some polite, fact-driven, nerd.
Hell that would be BORE-ING!....life is full of Saints and Sinners!
Some people cant deal with someone telling them "F-You"
I enjoy the challenge....but to each his own.
If I didn't like it here, I wouldn't be popping in every few months complaining...I'd be gone!
You complain about Michael Tee and BSB
sure they are sometimes crazy...maybe we all are?
But what would 3DHS be without them?
I'm not saying we couldn't survive without them..
but are SIRS/KRAMER/BT/CU4 gonna post to themselves all day?
I learned if you give Michael Tee just a bit of respect
let him go off on his rants...let him blow steam....
he is still worth communicating with....and he is educational...
and unlike XO he will admit a mistake and also be critical of a Democrat
Pooch hasn't taught you a damn thing in the last six months....But I betcha Michael Tee has!
Sirs you know you had to go look at sources/facts/become better informed on certain subjects
so you could come back with a factual response to Michael Tee....
All I am saying is maybe try making Michael Tee think...instead of trying to beat him or win the game.
Michael Tee will think...he is not unreasonable in the way XO is.
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Cu4, to be bluntly honest, I'm not sure how much more Pooch could be "part of the solution".
You believe that Pooch simply posting more often, will bring the likes ot Tee, BsB, and the
pissing matches associated with them, under a more controlled "stream"?
SIRS.....we have different views.....but thats ok.
To me Pooch is not part of anything....solution or problem....because he is not here.
True...in that we will have to agree to disagree. Pooch is always here, as is Miss Kim, as is Miss De, as is Lanya, as is Terra, as is H, as is Fatman, as is Capstrickland, etc. They don't post, for watever reasons, any more, but they will always be here, to me. As I said, Pooch couldn't be more of a solution, if he tried. It's not his job to be a moral arbitrator. He doesn't have the power to try and browbeat someone(s) to be more civil. He chooses to post, and when he does, it's largely dead on. You see, I'm an advocate of quality over quantity. Someone posting very little, but with the substance pooch provides, is a far greater positive to this saloon than someone like Tee spouting anti-american, pro-communist garbage on a daily basis. Both have their POV's, but the quality in pooch's posts far outweigh the quantity of Tee's spew. and it's not about ideology either. Fatman, H, even Js provide excellent qualitative commentary that's left leaning, if not liberal. It's how they present it.....that's the quality
And as I've already referenced, and as Pooch was trying to imply, its within ourselves to make a difference, not simply Pooch posting more often. Quality will be a far superior fix to the course of saloon debate than quantity of garbage currently on display
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The butterflys come where the nectar is .
What do we offer?
I like finding an opponent who isn't too intimidateing nor too abusive , but still an opponent. I like to share really good websites when I find them , perhaps discuss them .
I want to deepen my understanding of the issues I care about by learning the opposeing POV.
I even want to sharpen my ability to argue , by being challenged I slough off sloppy thinking , by composeing cogent arguments I learn the knack.
Stray Pooch brings up a real concern , little of any of these goals are advanced by ad hominim vitriol.
But hey , for some people a good place to vent spleen is their favoriate part.
What can we do about this? How do we make the site attractive to exactly what we want?
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I seldom post here - or even read here - much anymore. It's pretty easy to explain why. The tournament of minds that was the purpose of this site has degenerated into a tournament of the mindless.
You may have heard this before , If a man is haveing an arguement with a fool , what is the fool doing?
Seriously tho , I like the style of your writing even when I don't think you are right I find your essays cogent and interesting.
If few of us are so able , isn't your true purpose here that of teaching and coaching?
The reason I enjoy debate is because I learn from it - and I get to pontificate about my own views. That gives me both an ego boost and a way to sort out and organize my own thoughts. I have on a few occasions been paid for publishing essays based on ideas i hashed out here. I have had my horizons expanded, my ideals tested and my opinions refined over the last several years between here and PIC, but the moments of enlightenment are sandwiched between incessant muscle-flexing, insult-tossing and blithering profanity-laced nonsense. What in the world is the point of all of this mindlessness among so many who have such excellent minds?
Why don't we ask BT if he would be willing to make you a moderator in another branch site , one in which you and any other accomplished authors we can find can hold forth on proper tecniques and building of style. Writeing for being easyly understood is a teachable skill and so is the use of logic.
You could eject the misbehaving and praise the earnest , perhaps produceing writers who acheive more satisfaction from their effort , would this be a good use of time?
Hey , if it works well enough, you ought to charge for it.
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Lots of good posts here, forgive me if I do not have the energy to give each the specific response it deserves.
To clarify something that may have been inferred by some, this is not an "I'm leaving 'cuz you all don't play nice" post. It was also not an attempt to be playground monitor, though both of those inferences would be justified.
I also didn't intend to single out the current urinary olymplics between MT and BSB. It just happened to be the latest example, and it's a pretty good one. There were two or three threads out there with pointless drivel betwen the two of them and others joining in the fray. I couldn't believe the insanity, and I think it is a shame. Both MT and BSB have demonstrated numerous times that they have intelligence, insight and moral courage. It is so discouraging to see those attributes abdicated for the sake of posturing. And the level of debate is lowered when this kind of feud erupts because others drop to that level and then we have people slinging insults instead of offering substantive responses to points. BSB and MT are by no means the only combatants in this kind of war.
Those who suggest that more frequent visits on my part might be part of the solution make a good point, but I am getting older and my diabetes is getting worse. The mental energy it takes to contribute rational thoughts, support those thoughts when challenged with credible sources, respond to well-reasoned counterpoints and dodge the mudslinging (or get sucked into it myself) costs more than it did almost a decade ago when I first joined PIC. Some of you may recall that you couldn"t shut me up back then. And I'm sure all of you know I can give as well as I can get when it comes to flame wars. I cannot, however, sustain that level of intensity for long - and that is less a function of age than of temperment.
Most of the critiques offered here of my own post (or posting style) are valid - both the good ones and bad (though the good ones are MORE valid - lol). My post is not about being personally insulted (none of the mud was aimed at me) but about a sense of despair in looking at the degeneration of intelligent debate into mud-wrestling. It's kind of like that sick feeling I get when I really consider the gulf disaster. It isn't directly effecting me personally, but it's sickening and frustrating to watch.
My point in this post was to vent that frustration. I was listening to ZAMM (I'm doing the audio book thing this time) and reflecting on it and checked in to this site on a whim. I contrasted the uplifting and mentally stimulating exercise of that book, and the other pursuits I'm doing now (another of which is carrying on lively debates on FB) and I lament the state of the debate on this site. Right now, I am debating with my Bishop, his non-member daughter and several friends who are on both sides of the aisle about the gulf spill. I just recently engaged with my eldest son (who has grown surprisingly liberal these days - lol) about the immigration laws in Arizona. All of the tension and passion is there - but none of the personal attacks. This lends, btw, some credence to that other thread about anonymity emboldening aggression in debate on the internet. Most of us know each other personally and very closely on FB. That tends to moderate our responses.
But we are not really anonymous here on 3DHS, are we? We may not know each other's real names or have RL relationships, but we have all mostly communicated with each other for several years now on a fairly regular basis. That familiarity may have bred contempt, but I would hope we are all old and wise enough to let it also breed some kind of pseudo-filial respect.
Anyway, I know I am not a moderator, and I lack the energy or commitment to try to control so many dynamic personalities. BT and thr others who referee these skimishes are better people than I am. But I do think that pointing out the issue does have some valid value in contributing to a solution.
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"But I do think that pointing out the issue does have some valid value in contributing to a solution."
Won't change a thing pooch, but if it made you feel important for a minute or two that's good.
Oh, and I noticed that after freeing MT and myself from the worst of the worst list you went on to mention us at least two more times. As I said Pooch, update your camouflage, I can see you coming from a mile away.
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The Movement, Live with Chivalry, Chivas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Yzx06RLUo#)
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"But I do think that pointing out the issue does have some valid value in contributing to a solution."
Won't change a thing pooch, but if it made you feel important for a minute or two that's good.
Oh, and I noticed that after freeing MT and myself from the worst of the worst list you went on to mention us at least two more times. As I said Pooch, update your camouflage, I can see you coming from a mile away.
That's because I'm not camoflaged. If you are under the impression that I'm attacking you and MT just for the purpose of attacking you, rather than making a more general point, you are incorrect. I never intended to put you on any list, I simply mentioned the thread which provoked the post - and that happened to be yours. For balance, if you like, I might mention the "On Reflection" thread which Plane started based on a statement you made. The entire thread - and your posts in particular - are in a completely different place. It is very thought-provoking and far more in line with ZAMM (through no coincidence, one would think). Those sorts of posts are less likely to receive an immediate response - maybe even any response - because they can't be considered without time and further perspective and can't be answered in any coldly analytical way. (That's why ZAMM was one of the hardest books I ever read. I'd read a paragraph and then think about it for three days.) But I'd rather read a thread like that any day for exactly that reason.
Oddly, your camoflage post made me miss reading Field Manuals. It must be getting pretty late!
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The Movement, Live with Chivalry, Chivas
Wow. Celebrating civility, togetherness and alcohol. Perfect for the saloon!
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Those who suggest that more frequent visits on my part might be part of the solution make a good point,
but I am getting older and my diabetes is getting worse. The mental energy it takes to contribute rational
thoughts, support those thoughts when challenged with credible sources, respond to well-reasoned counterpoints
and dodge the mudslinging (or get sucked into it myself) costs more than it did almost a decade ago when I first
joined PIC. Some of you may recall that you couldn"t shut me up back then. I cannot, however, sustain that level
of intensity for long - and that is less a function of age than of temperment.
I can certainly relate to all that Pooch. Things that seemed important 10-15 years ago, don't seem
nearly as pressing today. Sometimes there are just more important things to do and also sometimes we all
need time away from this place. Some leave never to be heard from again, some return to get back in the
ring, and some like you stop in to say "hello". I hate to hear about your diabetes...thats what killed my Dad.
I hear exercise is the key to staving off the devastation of diabetes. Of course we all know the benefits
of exercise....I need to do more myself. Here's wishing you good health and hoping you will find the time
to stop in more often.....even a post every week or two from Poochie will be part of the solution!
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I don't have any idea what ZAMM is, pooch, but conditioned existence, or "emptiness", is a 2500 year old Buddhist teaching.
My point is this. While your point about the posts in here quickly turning into mindless drivel is of course well taken, the remedy would involve a lot more people manning up then just me and MT. There are some serious trash talkers in here and its been allowed to go on for years. Any analysis of the problem, and attempt to correct it, has to go a lot deeper, and involve a lot more then me and snowblower. Unfortunately your approach to the problem isn't going to produce that kind of result. It was a very shallow, and lacking, critique.
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ZAMM is the usual abbreviation for the title of Robert J. Pirsig's book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It is a great book, I highly recommend it.
I taught a course in Philosophy 101 at Dade Correctional in the 1980's. I used a standard summary of philosophers and ZAMM as textbooks. of the 25 students (I think that was the number) 20 loved ZAMM, 5 hated it. Four of them were pretty slow readers, and it's a long book.
You might consider reading it. Pirsig was a child prodigy, a genius that got into MIT when he was 14 or so. Then he dropped out and went to India, was stationed in Korea, and ended up teaching freshman comp at Bozeman State in Montana. While in a PhD program at the U of Chicago, he had a major nervous breakdown and went into a catatonic state and I think had electroshock therapy. He emerged a completely different man and dedicated himself to writing tech manuals. He was divorced after treatment, and then when his son was about 13 or so, he set out from Minneapolis to cross the country on a motorcycle, I think a BSA, with his son. As they travel across the country, he writes about his philosophical investigations. It is a sort of combined physical and intellectual road trip.
Pirsig investigates the links between technical perfection and art. His obsession is What is "the good" in action and thought and how can we identify it?"
Here are some quotes:
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/401.Robert_M_Pirsig (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/401.Robert_M_Pirsig)
Google ZAMM and you will find many Pirsig fans and comments on the book.
Note the comments about the name "Phaedrus" on the CD. He made a mistake as to who Phaedrus was in the dialogues of Plato. His son was killed by hoodlums. He narrates the CD and does a good job of it.
You can find the book in any library and new and used on Amazon.
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I don't have any idea what ZAMM is, pooch,
"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
It's a good book, written by Robert M. Pirsig.
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and unlike XO he will admit a mistake and also be critical of a Democrat
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This coming from the "Christian" who has been drumming for war with Iran and predicting it for over two years.
Have we ever heard CU4 claim that he was wrong about a Debkafiles prediction of war?
I was wrong to have voted for Hubert Humphrey in 1968.
I should have written in Gene McCarthy's name instead.
Happy now?
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Pirsig was a child prodigy, a genius that got into MIT when he was 14 or so.
University of Minnesota.
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Ah, so ZAMM = "Zen and the Art....." I thought it was some kind of new age horseshit.
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It's a good book, written by Robert M. Pirsig.
Although ZAMM was my first Zen book, these 3 are my favorites.
I am a different person because of these 3 books...especially the first 2.
(http://homepage.mac.com/dave_rogers/images/34)
(http://www.shambhala.com/images/covers/large/087773569.jpg)
(http://images.indiebound.com/685/704/9780394704685.jpg)
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It has nothing to do with the New Age. Pirsig was born in 1928. So he is 82 or so. NOT New Age.
I would not say that it is horseshit, either.
Okay I was wrong: His name is Robert M. Pirsig, not Robert J. Pirsig.
And he attended the U of Minnesota rather than MIT. I don't know where I got the MIT bit. I am thinking that he does not specifically mention the university in ZAMM.
Here is a link to his bio. He is not a man to categorize in any fashion, he is an original.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Pirsig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Pirsig)
So look, CU4, I have admitted I was wrong THREE times!
This must be a frabjous day for you.
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This coming from the "Christian" who has been drumming
for war with Iran and predicting it for over two years.
Absolutely I stand behind that "a Christian" can support going to war with slave owners,
Hitler, Islamo-Nazis and other great evils. I make no apologies for a position/opinion that
thinks the "moral high ground" is defeating an enemy before the enemy gets so strong
that waiting to confront the enemy will cause more death and misery.
BTW...You are wrongly ASSuming again.
I have never made a claim to be a Christian....although I have
a strong affinity for Christianity and Judeo-Christian values/culture.
Some people may call me a Christian and others would not.
That's their problem of needing to pigeonhole me...not mine.
I don't really care...what or how they see me....
Because it has no bearing as to what reality is.
Have we ever heard CU4 claim that he was wrong
about a Debkafiles prediction of war?
People that predicted "man would never land on the moon" were right for a long time too.
I nor Debka usually make specific date predictions on the start of a war.
If we ever did...then yes we were wrong.
Israel has been at war twice recently with Iranian proxies...it's a chess game.
Has Israel and Iran had an all-out war yet?
No...not yet....but it's coming....the sooner the better.
Anyone claiming that the situation will have a "fairytale ending" is living in fantasyland.
"I should have written in Gene McCarthy's name instead. Happy now?"
Happy that you are only further proving my point? Uh yes I am.
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No, XO, I didn't know what ZAMM stood for. I knew about the book, just never heard it refered to as ZAMM.
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I have never made a claim to be a Christian....
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No, you just use the name "Christians for Less Government" as a name on this forum, as though you (a) consider yourself a Christian, and (b) believe that somehow Jesus was God's version of Grover Norquist.
Suit yourself.
And observe that the US is no closer to a war with Iran than it was the first time you started cheerleading for one.
It would be a really, really bad idea, I think.
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I can certainly relate to all that Pooch. Things that seemed important 10-15 years ago, don't seem
nearly as pressing today. Sometimes there are just more important things to do and also sometimes we all
need time away from this place. Some leave never to be heard from again, some return to get back in the
ring, and some like you stop in to say "hello". I hate to hear about your diabetes...thats what killed my Dad.
I hear exercise is the key to staving off the devastation of diabetes. Of course we all know the benefits
of exercise....I need to do more myself. Here's wishing you good health and hoping you will find the time
to stop in more often.....even a post every week or two from Poochie will be part of the solution!
Thanks forthe kind words, CU4. I don't know if exercising my brain will help any, but that's about all I'm getting these days :D
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I don't have any idea what ZAMM is, pooch, but conditioned existence, or "emptiness", is a 2500 year old Buddhist teaching.
Sorry about that. I had mentioned the text in my initial post and failed to consider the disconnect in context. I'm old and lazy.
My point is this. While your point about the posts in here quickly turning into mindless drivel is of course well taken, the remedy would involve a lot more people manning up then just me and MT. There are some serious trash talkers in here and its been allowed to go on for years. Any analysis of the problem, and attempt to correct it, has to go a lot deeper, and involve a lot more then me and snowblower. Unfortunately your approach to the problem isn't going to produce that kind of result. It was a very shallow, and lacking, critique.
I think we are less in disagreement than your response seems to indicate you think. But honestly, the post was more a lament than a call to action - and I really wasn't aiming it at you. If I really thought I could solve the personality clashes and flame wars in here I would expend that magic power somewhere in the middle east.
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No, you just use the name "Christians for Less Government" as a name on this forum, as though
you (a) consider yourself a Christian, (b)
XO because in the political realm I support conservative Christians that are for less government
is obviously not a complete explanation of my personal spirtual beliefs. Captain Kirk...Pigeon-Hole REJECTED!
Again...in my opinion Christians and like-minded people can support wars with slave owners, Hitler, IslamoNazis
without compromising their ideals.
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believe that somehow Jesus was God's version of Grover Norquist.
I'd ask you to show me where Jesus advocated ever larger government, but I already know you cannot.
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Js seemed to frequetly perpetuate that theory. IIRC, it had to do with how Jesus advocated that we have this "moral obligation to take care of our brother". SOMEHOW that translated into the notion that someone else take care of another.....mandatorily, as necessary. And thus the Government was needed to help "facilitate" that moral obligation. Something along those lines.