Why do we debate like fools?

[Stray Pooch]

I seldom post here - or even read here - much anymore.  It's pretty easy to explain why.  The tournament of minds that was the purpose of this site has degenerated into a tournament of the mindless.

The reason I enjoy debate is because I learn from it - and I get to pontificate about my own views.  That gives me both an ego boost and a way to sort out and organize my own thoughts.  I have on a few occasions been paid for publishing essays based on ideas i hashed out here.  I have had my horizons expanded, my ideals tested and my opinions refined over the last several years between here and PIC, but the moments of enlightenment are sandwiched between incessant muscle-flexing, insult-tossing and blithering profanity-laced nonsense.  What in the world is the point of all of this mindlessness among so many who have such excellent minds?

Is arguing over whether we should use ethnic slurs or stereotypes in any way conducive to actual exchange of intelligent ideas?  Is the use of those devices helpful in any way in coming to an understanding of the world?  I am in the process of re-reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" right now.  Pirsig makes some pretty profound arguments about looking at both sides of perception (in this case classical versus romantic views) and how ultimately each is necessary.  Are the techniques of debate that seem to be predominant on this site in any way advancing that kind of mutual sharing and understanding?  What's the point?

At the same time, I'm teaching the Old Testament, reading "The Dream Palace of the Arabs" by Fouad Ajami and trying to reconcile my children's lifestyle choices with my view of eternal law.  That's a helluva lot of mental processing. I could use a place where I can expend a little creative energy instead of just absorbing information - and at its best this place combines both.  But at its worst, it presents a barrage of unseemly, uninspired and unimportant grudge matches.  Is this really what we come here for?  Why?  Why don't we just kick puppies or beat up our pillows at night and be done with it?  What's the point?

I understand that debate gets intense, and we all know I've fired my own live rounds on this range, but this isn't a skirmish, it's an ongoing firefight.  I am equally offended by BSB's use of the term "kike" and MT's "Amerikkka" references but I am not going to insist either be censored, nor am I going to retaliate in kind.  If someone wants to start a thread trashing Mormons I may respond, if I think it appropriate or potentially valuable - or if it just touches a particular nerve and my sugar is high - but I will respond in the moment, not throw an ultimatum out there to delete the thread or face some kind of rhetorical Mormon jihad.  What's the point?

If half of the posts on this site are ad hominem attacks on other posters (and I suspect that estimate is low) then why bother posting them at all?  My ego is as big as anyone's here but I'm not going to waste my flagging intellectual energy on proving I'm as bad-ass as some other poster.  Generally speaking, I'm not.  I get pissed but I don't have the stomach for hours of negativity and pointless deutero-debating (although I realize that's what this post is).  I think some of the views expressed on here - many in fact - are mindless drivel, but I don't think that the people posting are mindless.  We are just throwing intellectual tantrums instead of tryng to communicate with others in some kind of sensible fashion.  What's the point?

My old high school was a great place to learn in 1975.  Unfortunately, today it is plagued with high crime rates, high teenage pregnancy rates, high drug use rates and very low academic performance.  We are discussing a 35 year reunion.  Nobody has any interest in going to the building as part of that.  It's not the same place.  I sometimes feel that way when I check in here.  I know that there is substantive discussion going on somewhere in here, but finding it is like navigating a minefield.  I like chocolate, but if I have to dig through manure to find it I'm really not interested.  The manure won't taste any better for the addition of the chocolate, but the chocolate will certainly taste worse.

It's tough, I know, to avoid a response when somebody lobs a grenade at you, but it would both elevate the debate and reduce the incidence of mud-wrestling if we could do so.  I get very depressed when I check in, which I only do when I am bored anymore.  I'd like to spend more time exchanging ideas and less exchanging insults.  Otherwise, what's the point?

[sirs]

Pooch, you couldn't be more right       

[BSB]

I read your post Pooch but I couldn't find anything other then your ego.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I have read Pirsig's Zen and the Art five times now, and agree that it is an very thought-provoking book. The same is true for his later book, Lila, which deals more with the origins of US politics through the years )(and sailing up the Hudson River).

I have no idea why BSB and MT are feuding. It makes no sense to me at all.


 

[Michael Tee]

What's the difference? The issues still get discussed, by anyone who wants to discuss them, with anyone worth discussing them with.

If you feel a poster's too offensive and/or obnoxious to bother with, blow him off, don't bother with him.  No rule that you HAVE to debate with someone who, in your opinion, is just a jerk.

As far as the insults are concerned, BSB must have some need to piss me off that's satisfied with "Kike" and I must have some need to piss off all the war-mongers and racists in this group by spelling "America" with three K's.  It stands for something in my POV, just like "Kike" stands for something in his.  It's certainly not the main focus of either of our activities here, but it's a part - - in some ways an enjoyable part - - of the debate for me.  But I can see it's not for everyone.

Pooch, I'll be honest with ya - - I enjoy reading your posts, take 'em all seriously, agree with virtually none of them, and wish you would drop in here more often.  But in reality - - this is a debating club that does get a lot more abuse of good debating rules than a real debating club would allow.  (I'm pleading guilty as charged before any fingers start pointing at me.)  It's not exactly a home for shrinking violets.  It is what it is.  I am also annoyed by the use of ad hominem attacks to avoid the discussion of substantive issues (as IMHO happened in the medevac thread) but that doesn't mean you can't find solid substantive debate anywhere in here.

So I'll just close with the hope that you'll manage somehow to overlook all our imperfections and (holding your nose?) drop in here more often to weigh in on issues that are of interest to you, and hopefully, to some of us as well.  Its always a pleasure to hear from you.

[sirs]

Pretty transparent backpedaling there, Tee

[BSB]

Learn to use camouflage correctly. Pick the right pattern for the environment you'll be using it in. Realize that while camouflage can't make you invisible it can break up your outline so that you'll blend into your environment. Once you enter enemy territory limit your movements. No camouflage can overcome movement. The human brain naturally alerts to movement. That's the way we're wired. By staying still, and using the right camouflage pattern, I've had enemy soldiers walk within arms length of me and never know I was there.

Pooch, you need to update your camouflage, and limit your movements. Remember, once you're compromised, your mission has failed.

The proper use of camouflage:  http://www.clipartgallery.com/government/military/people/soldiers_camoflauge.jpg

[Michael Tee]

This thread is getting too fucking weird for me.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Pooch is bright, educational, a good writer, and everything nice...although I don't
always agree with him either...I miss his wisdom...but there is some part of me that also says
he is like the person that doesn't vote yet complains about government. Sure Pooch claims/implies
he would drop in more often if everything was "nice and pretty"....I really wonder if that's true?
Maybe Pooch should be part of the solution instead just complaining about the "good ole days".

I think this place would be better served with his input and commentary....but that's his call....it
isn't just 3DHS that has some ugly political incidents....it's the world today baby....just yesterday
we have a US Congressman grabbing and slapping at a student that simply asked "Congressman
so do you support the President's agenda?". The political headlines are full of just as much
non-sense...Sarah Palin's boobs?....Nancy Pelosi's facelifts?....To pretend that sometimes politics
is not going to get heated....sometimes cause people to says things they may regret later....sometimes
hurt people's feelings is not realistic....3DHS is not and in my mind should not be like a prim & proper high
school debate team....some will claim...we have lost membership mainly because of the day to day
conduct of frequent posters....I don't buy it....I think the reason we don't have more activity is
because 3DHS is an unknown in a huge sea of the internet. Sure some old posters have left
for various reasons....time constraints, new obligations, bored, mad, frustrated, banned, whatever....
but in my opinion the main reason we don't see more activity is because 3DHS is an unknown. Of
course 3DHS isnt going to be everyone's "cup of tea"....they would prefer a perfect list of debaters
with no "warts".....they would prefer a place with no personality...again thats their call....but this place
has something special or we wouldn't all be returning everyday. We just need to "recruit" a few people
that enjoy the "heat in this kitchen" that like some craziness. If we could all just recruit two people to
join and become regular posters it would help invigorate this place.

[sirs]

Cu4, to be bluntly honest, I'm not sure how much more Pooch could be "part of the solution".  You believe that Pooch simply posting more often, will bring the likes ot Tee, BsB, and the pissing matches associated with them, under a more controlled "stream"?  Yes, the saloon is greatly more fun to read, if he's posting, but that won't change the efforts by others.  At least not from what I've historically seen.  

No one wants to "squelch" a person's POV or repress that which passionately burns inside.  Pooch just believes, as do I, though obviously don't practice what I preach near enough, that we be mature adults in how we voice our passion and POV.  Notice how I've tried to get Tee to enter in to a better debate mode, but now we see that its no longer about my or Prince's calling him out on his less than truthful ranting romps, now its just that we're supposedly jerks, while he responds in jerk-like spades to other posters, while BsB, for some twisted reason, starts jerking off about me, despite my being a huge supporter of his war effort and being in our military.

Point being, Pooch IS part of the solution, if we were to listen to what he's trying to say.  His merely posting more often isn't it.  It's we listening & learning.

IMHO

[kimba1]

I like to read all kinds of opinions . it lets us knows whats out there.

we had a guy here who was a extreme homophobe and talked about how aids came from gays who can`t leave monkeys in africa alone.

I check and that`s actually a common thought with alot of homophobes


believe or not but he let us know how homophobes think of gays.

everything here is educational here.

I do wish were talk more math & science, but that`s up to the news

[Christians4LessGvt]

Cu4, to be bluntly honest, I'm not sure how much more Pooch could be "part of the solution".  
You believe that Pooch simply posting more often, will bring the likes ot Tee, BsB, and the
pissing matches associated with them, under a more controlled "stream"?  

SIRS.....we have different views.....but thats ok.

To me Pooch is not part of anything....solution or problem....because he is not here.

Pooch has made his decision..fine...but to pop in every 6 months & cry about it...just seems rather lame.

Instead of complaining about the weeds in the picture..
grow some flowers to lessen the weeds being the focal point!

Who cares if a "pissing match" is part of a bigger picture?
Quit moaning and just try and make the picture bigger!
Drown out the weeds with flowers!
If everybody was like Pooch & had already given-up...well we wouldn't be here today!

You think you're not going to run into a few nuts in life?
You're dreaming if ya think everybody is gonna be some polite, fact-driven, nerd.
Hell that would be BORE-ING!....life is full of Saints and Sinners!
Some people cant deal with someone telling them "F-You"
I enjoy the challenge....but to each his own.
If I didn't like it here, I wouldn't be popping in every few months complaining...I'd be gone!

You complain about Michael Tee and BSB
sure they are sometimes crazy...maybe we all are?
But what would 3DHS be without them?
I'm not saying we couldn't survive without them..
but are SIRS/KRAMER/BT/CU4 gonna post to themselves all day?

I learned if you give Michael Tee just a bit of respect
let him go off on his rants...let him blow steam....
he is still worth communicating with....and he is educational...
and unlike XO he will admit a mistake and also be critical of a Democrat

Pooch hasn't taught you a damn thing in the last six months....But I betcha Michael Tee has!
Sirs you know you had to go look at sources/facts/become better informed on certain subjects
so you could come back with a factual response to Michael Tee....

All I am saying is maybe try making Michael Tee think...instead of trying to beat him or win the game.
Michael Tee will think...he is not unreasonable in the way XO is.

[sirs]

Cu4, to be bluntly honest, I'm not sure how much more Pooch could be "part of the solution".  
You believe that Pooch simply posting more often, will bring the likes ot Tee, BsB, and the
pissing matches associated with them, under a more controlled "stream"?  

SIRS.....we have different views.....but thats ok.

To me Pooch is not part of anything....solution or problem....because he is not here.

True...in that we will have to agree to disagree.  Pooch is always here, as is Miss Kim, as is Miss De, as is Lanya, as is Terra, as is H, as is Fatman, as is Capstrickland, etc.  They don't post, for watever reasons, any more, but they will always be here, to me.  As I said, Pooch couldn't be more of a solution, if he tried.  It's not his job to be a moral arbitrator.  He doesn't have the power to try and browbeat someone(s) to be more civil.  He chooses to post, and when he does, it's largely dead on.  You see, I'm an advocate of quality over quantity.  Someone posting very little, but with the substance pooch provides, is a far greater positive to this saloon than someone like Tee spouting anti-american, pro-communist garbage on a daily basis.  Both have their POV's, but the quality in pooch's posts far outweigh the quantity of Tee's spew.  and it's not about ideology either.  Fatman, H, even Js provide excellent qualitative commentary that's left leaning, if not liberal.  It's how they present it.....that's the quality

And as I've already referenced, and as Pooch was trying to imply, its within ourselves to make a difference, not simply Pooch posting more often.  Quality will be a far superior fix to the course of saloon debate than quantity of garbage currently on display

[Plane]

The butterflys come where the nectar is .


What do we offer?


I like finding an opponent who isn't too intimidateing nor too abusive , but still an opponent. I like to share really good websites when I find them , perhaps discuss them .

I want to deepen my understanding of the issues I care about by learning the opposeing POV.

I even want to sharpen my ability to argue , by being challenged I slough off sloppy thinking , by composeing cogent arguments I learn the knack.

Stray Pooch brings up a real concern , little of any of these goals are advanced by ad hominim vitriol.
But hey , for some people a good place to vent spleen is their favoriate part.

What can we do about this?  How do we make the site attractive to exactly what we want?

[Plane]

I seldom post here - or even read here - much anymore.  It's pretty easy to explain why.  The tournament of minds that was the purpose of this site has degenerated into a tournament of the mindless.

You may have heard this before , If a man is haveing an arguement with a fool , what is the fool doing?


Seriously tho , I like the style of your writing even when I don't think you are right I find your essays cogent and interesting.

If few of us are so able , isn't your true purpose here that of teaching and coaching?

The reason I enjoy debate is because I learn from it - and I get to pontificate about my own views.  That gives me both an ego boost and a way to sort out and organize my own thoughts.  I have on a few occasions been paid for publishing essays based on ideas i hashed out here.  I have had my horizons expanded, my ideals tested and my opinions refined over the last several years between here and PIC, but the moments of enlightenment are sandwiched between incessant muscle-flexing, insult-tossing and blithering profanity-laced nonsense.  What in the world is the point of all of this mindlessness among so many who have such excellent minds?

Why don't we ask BT if he would be willing to make you a moderator in another branch site , one in which you and any other accomplished authors we can find can hold forth on proper tecniques and building of style. Writeing for being easyly understood is a teachable skill and so is the use of logic.

You could eject the misbehaving and praise the earnest , perhaps produceing writers who acheive more satisfaction from their effort  , would this be a good use of time?


Hey , if it works well enough, you ought to charge for it.