DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: hnumpah on April 28, 2016, 03:50:57 AM
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Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam has signed legislation that allows mental health counselors and therapists to refuse to treat patients based on religious objections or personal beliefs.
Critics of the law say it could result in discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. As Nashville Public Radio reported earlier this month:
"A group representing gay and lesbian Tennesseans [asked Haslam] to veto the legislation. ...
"The Tennessee Equality Project, an LGBT advocacy group, says the measure will make it harder for gays and lesbians to find counseling — particularly in rural parts of the state where religiously conservative therapists are common."
Haslam, however, said in a statement that he decided to sign the bill because it addressed two of his concerns. He said:
"First, the bill clearly states that it 'shall not apply to a counselor or therapist when an individual seeking or undergoing counseling is in imminent danger of harming themselves or others.' Secondly, the bill requires that any counselor or therapist who feels they cannot serve a client due to the counselor's sincerely held principles must coordinate a referral of the client to another counselor or therapist who will provide the counseling or therapy."
According to The Associated Press, the American Counseling Association "called the legislation an 'unprecedented attack' on the counseling profession and said Tennessee was the only state to ever pass such a law."
As NPR reported last week, the law is "part of a widespread reaction to the national focus on same-sex marriage and transgender rights."
North Carolina recently enacted legislation commonly known as the "bathroom bill," a law that bans transgender people from using public restrooms that correspond with their gender identity. And a controversial so-called religious liberty bill in Georgia — which would have allowed religious officials and faith-based organizations to deny services when doing so would violate a "sincerely held religious belief" — prompted a number of companies to threaten to boycott the state. The governor vetoed that measure.
Copyright 2016 NPR. To see more, visit NPR.
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Actually, I could almost go along with this one. If I needed a therapist, I don't think I'd want one that took a religious slant to whatever therapy they provided. I would be there to be helped, not preached at.
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Actually, I could almost go along with this one. If I needed a therapist, I don't think I'd want one that took a religious slant to whatever therapy they provided. I would be there to be helped, not preached at.
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I can see your point.
Most truly professional counselors do not let their religious beliefs get involved. That is a standard of professionalism.
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Can a therapist refuse to treat a person based on that person rejecting the therapy?
I am mostly sorry that this must be a matter of law and not common sense.
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AA is christain base would they turn people away? What about suicide hotlines?
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I don't think AA rejects nonbelievers.
People who work foe suicide hotlines would not get the job if they refused to speak to callers baswed on religion.
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Just poin Out example that christains has example of not denying people.
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Just poin Out example that christains has example of not denying people.
Because the law requires it?
Or because this is the call they made?
Suppose you were a Christian bartender, should you serve everyone everything as requested?
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Suppose you were a Christian bartender, should you serve everyone everything as requested?
And if I were a vegetarian butcher, I would have to sell meat.
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Well actually a business should post what theme they are. If they got christain restrictions then it should be worded out front. Look at the trouble that bakery got for not doing it.
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And if I were a vegetarian butcher....
What the hell is a "vegetarian Butcher"?? ???
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Definately not vegan. If such a person exist he or she woukd be like me who has no issue with eating meat but just do not eat it for whatever reason. Which means being a butcher will have no ethical conflict. I say thus because im leaning towards to vegetarian side but not for ethical reasons
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Well actually a business should post what theme they are. If they got christain restrictions then it should be worded out front. Look at the trouble that bakery got for not doing it.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. Close, anyway. This goes back to the kosher/halal thing I posted before. Still, you can't absolutely refuse to serve someone based on race, creed, religion, blah blah blah, BUT you can post a sign saying (stay with me here) KOSHER ONLY or HALAL ONLY or NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE... get the idea? As long as everyone, every legitimate customer, is treated the same within those guidelines.
So, a bakery can make, say, a generic seven-tier wedding cake for anyone BUT, say, refuse to put anything on it that would in any way signify whether it was for a traditional union or a non-traditional one. No little plastic couple on top, or XX loves OO written on it - well, unless they were perfectly willing to do it for everyone. THAT's what I (and others) have been trying to point out. IF a baker, or whomever, isn't willing to provide the service for everyone, even those he doesn't necessarily agree with, he shouldn't be doing it for anyone, not in a public business establishment. Otherwise they should find another line of work.
That's all people are asking for, to be treated the same as everyone else.
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I believe a senator is trying to do this and she's getting flak for this
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A vegetarian butcher would be a person who was a butcher by trade, but who had a butcher shop. It is unnecessary for a butcher to kill the animals whose meat he peddles.
I imagine that bakers who refuse to sell cakes to Gays and lesbians are only slightly more common than vegetarian butchers.
There are surely lots of vegetarians and vegans who work as cashiers in places where meat is sold. We do not hear any lawsuits occurring among them, because it would not be useful in getting the fundie hick vote like defending the "right" of bakers to refuse to sell wedding cakes to Gays or Lesbians.
This is a silly topic, and has attracted silly people.
I agree with Hnumpah on his comments.
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I googled it and thier is a vega n butchershop but they sell meat substitutes. One of my recent pet peeves is going on there. People who complain about fake meat. If you don't like it don't eat it but don't criticize it shouldn't be made at all. I grew up in a buddhist household and when it come to meat we acknowledge it taste great but prefer not to eat it but that doesn't mean we should deny eating something close if we can. So I grew up eat lots fake meats and love it. I do notice anerican vegitarians can't eat buddhist dishes due it tasting like meat . But back to the vegan butchershop thirr getting flak from the pork folks saying thier tricking people into not eating meat. I never thought the meat people are starting to act like the radical vegans.
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Well actually a business should post what theme they are. If they got christain restrictions then it should be worded out front. Look at the trouble that bakery got for not doing it.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. Close, anyway. This goes back to the kosher/halal thing I posted before. Still, you can't absolutely refuse to serve someone based on race, creed, religion, blah blah blah, BUT you can post a sign saying (stay with me here) KOSHER ONLY or HALAL ONLY or NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE... get the idea? As long as everyone, every legitimate customer, is treated the same within those guidelines.
So, a bakery can make, say, a generic seven-tier wedding cake for anyone BUT, say, refuse to put anything on it that would in any way signify whether it was for a traditional union or a non-traditional one. No little plastic couple on top, or XX loves OO written on it - well, unless they were perfectly willing to do it for everyone. THAT's what I (and others) have been trying to point out. IF a baker, or whomever, isn't willing to provide the service for everyone, even those he doesn't necessarily agree with, he shouldn't be doing it for anyone, not in a public business establishment. Otherwise they should find another line of work.
That's all people are asking for, to be treated the same as everyone else.
That sounds reasonable , but would it satisfy the law, and would it satisfy litigious LGBT couples willing to chase down a test case across eight state lines?
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In school I had a close friend who was Seventh Day Adventist. Often at lunch, we would swap sandwiches. I don't remember what I had, but he always had some soy meat or something he hated. I thought it was pretty good.
Just don't ever ask me to give up my bacon...
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Plane -
That should satisfy the law just fine. Everyone can get the same product and the same treatment.
And was it shown that was what was done to make this a test case? And if it was, should it matter? Apparently the court didn't think so.
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I see the improvement , but I still don't feel satisfied.
I have been a plumber and a carpenter a welder and an electrician. I have made and sold a commercial sign, I was a Sailor too.
I can imagine having a fabrication business, would you like me to have no right to refuse to build nice flaming crosses for the KKK?
Is it beyond my rights to refuse to do any work for anyone , just because I would rather not?
Whatever business I might try to do , I am sure that there is a way to misuse it , whether laying carpet or dispensing drugs.
One of the things I see as vulnerable is sellers of firearms , some of these guys have gotten into more trouble than others , because some of them refuse to sell to the customer that strikes them as untrustable, and the ability to discern this quality is not universal.
So you have a gun to sell and this guy that has the cash wants it , but you have a screaming instinct not to do it, can you not do it?
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I'm not out to play wild hypotheticals.
But...
If you are a licensed firearms dealer, are you not required to do a background check anyway, and would it not be your responsibility as a licensed dealer to bring your suspicions to the attention of the proper authorities?
And if this is a private transaction, of course you can sell, or not, to whomever you want.
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And if this is a private transaction, of course you can sell, or not, to whomever you want.
No.
This is what we are talking about loosing.
It puts anyone dealing with a dangerous product into a catch 22.
It puts anyone who thinks it wrong into a gag order.
It makes dozens of careers inappropriate for Christians or Jews or Muslims who are observant.
All because there is no right to discriminate?
There is often example of how discrimination is wrong and causes hardship, but I bet that for each of them there could be an example of discrimination being a good idea.
Businesses that discriminate foolishly are going to be outcompeted by businesses with equal quality but wider reach, why isn't that enough?
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Sorry, yes, if it is a private sale, you can sell or not to whomever you please.
A business, however, generally has a license issued by a local governing authority that is tasked with enforcing the law, including those against discrimination. That permit can be revoked if the business does not conform to those laws.
I could care less whether you agree with the law. If you don't, lobby to change it. In the meantime, you have two choices.
You can obey the law, keep your permit, and keep doing business.
You can ignore the law, and risk paying the penalties.
Look on the second option as an opportunity to become a martyr for the cause; to defy the law, spend everything you own fighting it, possibly end up in jail for contempt of the law, and so on. Then when you die and stand before your god you can beat your breast and tell him how dedicated you were to the cause. Might get you a mention in some heavenly journal and a house next door to Job or Daniel, or at the least a pat on the head and a cookie.
No one is saying you can't ignore the law.
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http://ftf-comics.com/
No.
That is just not how it is.
There is a popular cause and it is getting unusual protection.
If a baker didn't feel like baking a cake for me because he just didn't feel like baking a cake for me , I would have no legal recourse but to find another baker.
But all the difference is in the reason he doesn't feel like baking my cake and his inability to lie about it .
What is the real purpose of such law?
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(http://ftf-comics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/203.jpg)
http://ftf-comics.com
(http://ftf-comics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/205.jpg)
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Yes, it is. Try to force me to sell you a gun. Take me to court. I am a private owner. You can no more force that than you could force me to sell you my car, or my house.
There will always be ways out, there always have been. How do you think blacks were kept from moving into white neighborhoods years ago? I bet a lot of inventive excuses were made up by sellers and real estate agents. I bet a lot still are. But as people catch on, laws are passed and enforced, lawsuits are won, and discrimination, even disguised as something else, gets harder to get away with.
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Kimba & H, have touched on what could be considered a reasonable compromise, although I'm extremely wary about "compromising" any of my constitutional rights. Perhaps if an establishment made it painfully clear of what they're willing to do vs not, ....... would that be enough? Or would some entity, see it as another marker of Politically Correct deduced bigotry, that needs to be snuffed out. To be honest, I don't see some sign as providing such an umbrella of protection. Places used to have signs (many still do), that indicate they reserve the right to refuse service. Apparently, they don't
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There is an excellent vegetarian restaurant in the San Telmo district of Buenos Aires, in the Plaza Dorrego.
http://www.guiaoleo.com.ar/restaurantes/Naturaleza-Sabia-7710
Who better to be good at fake meat than an Argentine?
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the only thing I fear about the right to refuse is it effects my health. drugstores has refuse medications due to ethical conserns but even if it`s possible to go to another the potential delay can take days an somehow people do not understand cost can be extremely high
I once had wait a week to get my mothers heart meds which could cost 100's more if I request it sooner. my situation had nothing to do with religion but does pretain to potential delays and costfor going to another store.
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/12/02/cvs_refused_to.html
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Places used to have signs (many still do), that indicate they reserve the right to refuse service. Apparently, they don't
There are fewer and fewer of these signs. I have not seen one in years. They are never seen in chain restaurants, so far as I know.
The owner clearly has the right to post the sign (as that is free speech), but he does not have the right to refuse service to people based on creed, color or sex.
Service may be refused if the person offends other customers, such as being shoeless, shirtless, pantsless, smelling bad or speaking obscenities
or wearing clothing with obscene words or graphics on them.
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In my job Iwish I can refuse service on people with disabilities but we`re somehow considered cruel for doing that. I totally don`t doubt thier disabled but thier totally taking advantage of it. was I supposed to mention thier faking thier pets as service animals .
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Service animals have many different uses these days, not just as guide dogs. Some can sense when a diabetics blood sugar is too low, or if a seizure prone person may be about to have a seizure. Companion pets are used to calm anxiety - one of the more well-known uses is for veterans with PTSD. It is difficult to tell just by looking if a pet is a service animal.
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The problem I have is I wish they were trained to not bark or run around . Don't understand why some come in pairs or groups. I almost think thier fakes.
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Kimba there are a bunch of fake ass handi-cap people here in Dallas...many with those handi-cap parking placards hanging from their rear-view mirror. They park right up by the door.
we need more of this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1yV--wovhk
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Bully meets asshole over nonsensical non-problem.
Bully puts on he catchme-f*ckme hat so the world can see he is a professional bully. Reminded me of a PE teacher at my HS, who got canned because the team lost almost every game he coached.
There were plenty of parking spaces for everyone.
I didn't like seeing that bully do his thing. I think I would have just stood there and looked at him. Let him punch me so I could sue his ass off. I detest bullys. But I would never park in a disabled spot.
I try to park in the shade or where there is only a place for another car on one side.
I don't mind walking half a block to a store.
When a place like a lumberyard or a DIY plumbing supply place has 15 handicap spots, it makes me wonder.
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............. I am a private owner.............
Posted by: hnumpah
« on: April 29, 2016, 11:35:22 PM »
I'm not out to play wild hypotheticals.
But...
Why does this get a pass?
Is this permanent that private ownership allows a person some control of his product?
If a person is the proprietor of a small business, and he is asked to produce something that makes him a participant in something he considers odious, aren't his rights being trampled?
As far as I know the KKK has had little trouble getting tailors for their uniforms , carpenters for their crosses etc. but they didn't need the law on their side to get these products made.
These LGBT folk are not handicapped by bakers refusing them in any way other than hypothetically, but their demand is not for cake itself , it is a demand for respect.
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One of the thing that does become quite irksome is the erroneous notion & pronouncements that such Christian business folk are "pushing their religion" on some customer, when they're doing no such thing. No one is requring you get baptized before your cake is baked. No one is demanding you to read scripture before getting your flowers. No one is requiring you to pray before you're handed your chicken nuggets. There are a gazillion other businesses that would gladly take your business, if you feel uncomfortable that someone doesn't share or embrace your "lifestyle choices"
But no, this is just the opposite....using Government to force people of faith, to act against their 1st amendment rights to religious freedom. Yes, in theory, they could post a disclaimer, for all the good that would do....which IMHO, would do squat.
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i liked it mentioned museums guards,but it`s so blatant now I think most us of us naturally suspect them.
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/fake-service-dog-registration-becomes-a-crime-in-florida-070715.html
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I have never run across anyone misrepresenting a service dog. I can't recall seeing a service dog in a restaurant, either. If this is a problem, it cannot be a very big one.
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In my job it's quite blatant . i never seen it happen in a restaurant also but I hear happens on planes also
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I have never seen a dog on a plane.
I did see a woman with a Yorkie in a handbag at the airport once.
I doubt that there are service Yorkies.
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Ive seen alot of service lap dogs. Give it time you will seen them on planes. I think I hear at leeat 2 incidents on planes
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I never seen a serivce stuff dog yet
http://wjla.com/features/7-on-your-side/pet-peeve-7oys-investigates-pet-owners-cheating-the-system-to-fly-pets-for-free
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The abuse I have seen the most of is people claiming to be cripples so they get seated on in wheelchairs planes first and get first crack at the overhead luggage storage.
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Thats so low i never even think it's being done
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There are always at least a couple of easily identified fake cripples on every flight between MIA and SDQ.
The come in carrying a lot of suitcases and then ask for wheelchairs.