Old Hickory Must Go

[hnumpah]

Pandora's Box: New Orleans prof says Confederate purge would target Andrew Jackson, too
Perry Chiaramonte

If New Orleans intends to purge all symbols of the Confederacy, it must take down its famous statue of Andrew Jackson, too, according to a Big Easy professor, who says his tongue-in-cheek demand is meant to show the absurdity of measuring historical figures by contemporary standards.

With rebel symbols under fire around the nation in the wake of the mass shooting in June of black worshipers at a Charleston, S.C., church by a white supremacist who embraced the stars and bars, New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu has called for the removal of statues of Confederate stalwarts Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and PGT Beauregard. But a local university dean says a longstanding city ordinance being invoked by Landrieu would just as easily apply to the seventh president, known as "Old Hickory" and famous for defeating the British in the War of 1812's pivotal Battle of New Orleans

The ordinance allows city officials to remove any statue or monument deemed a nuisance if, among other things, it "honors, praises, or fosters ideologies which are in conflict with the requirements of equal protection for citizens as provided by the constitution and laws of the United States." Taken at its word, and without the benefit of historical context, the ordinance would mandate the removal of the statue of Jackson on horseback that has marked Jackson Square since 1856, said Tulane University Prof. Richard Marksbury.

“I don’t want to see any statues taken down," Marksbury told FoxNews.com. "I’m trying to prove a point.”

Marksbury, who has called New Orleans home for more than 40 years, said he is dismayed at the calls for removal of historical statues. Jackson owned slaves, battled fiercely against Seminole Indians in Florida, ordered the Cherokee nation onto reservations and signed the Indian Removal Act, all actions that could put his statue at odds with the ordinance. But he was of a different time, and a significant historical figure, said Marksbury. Monuments may be seen as marking history, not necessarily venerating individuals, he said.

Last week, a public commission in the French Quarter voted to remove a 124-year-old obelisk monument dedicated to the White League's brief, and bloody, overthrow of a biracial Reconstruction government after the Civil War. The fate of 35-foot-high monument, which stands on the edge of the old historic district, now awaits a decision from the City Council, as do the Confederate statues.

“If they [keep] going down this route, they will open Pandora’s box,” Marksbury said, explaining why he proposal, first made in a letter to local newspaper The New Orleans Advocate in late July. “My position is that if you remove one, you have to remove them all."

Landrieu's office in New Orleans did not immediately return requests for comment.

Jackson died 16 years before the Civil War but made military history in the War of 1812. When New Orleans was under threat, Jackson took control of the defenses, including militia for various western states and territories. In the Battle of New Orleans in 1815, his 5,000 troops successfully fought off nearly 8,000 British troops, saving the city.

Next on t9he chpping block is an engraving of the Confederate flag that is part of a mural near the entrance of City Hall according to local TV station Fox8.

"Across our state and our country, there has been broad consensus that confederate flags should not fly over government buildings,” Landrieu said. “Staff is currently researching the history of the etched marble at the entrance of City Hall to determine the process for removing the Confederate flag crest, as well as alternatives to represent the Civil War period of our city's history in this mural."

Orleans Parish Councilman James Gray is in favor of taking down the Confederate monuments in the city, but he does not believe the Confederate engraving should be removed.

"I think it's a real difference in having a mere historical account than having a statue that is set in a place of honor and being maintained by taxpayer dollars," Gray said to Fox8.


Perry Chiaramonte is a reporter for FoxNews.com.

[Xavier_Onassis]

One must weigh the good and bad qualities against one another.

I have heard that there used to be Cherokees that would not accept a $20 bill in payment, because it has Jackson's portrait on it.

Andrew Jackson was the only President to end his term with a budget surplus.

He accomplished this by illegally confiscating Indian land and selling it to White settlers.

I don't think Jackson's statue will be removed.


In Argentina, there has been a constant battle over the statues of General and Presidente Alejo Julio Argentino Roca.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_Argentino_Roca

One group restores his statue and has a ceremony, then after a while, some of the descendants of the Indians he defeated attack him with spray paint and worse.

[Plane]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-stone-mountain-georgia-naacp-20150714-story.html

NAACP wants to sandblast Stone Mountain.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    The USA has taken shape in the hands of people who strove heroically, including people that spent a lot of time being wrong.

     On the grounds of Annapolis is a statue of Tecumseh , one of the most dangerous enemies the United States ever had.

       But it can be argued that Tecumseh played his part as an honorable enemy, and deserves this honor.
       This particular statue had been made as the figurehead for a Warship , the USS Delaware.
        If Tecumseh had won where he instead lost , the Canadian border would be south of the Ohio River and the USA would never have been nearly as strong. This might have reduced the North more than the South such that the issue of slavery would have been fought on different terms.

       Better to have the statues , and tell the truth . 

[Xavier_Onassis]

All a bunch of nonsense. No one will sandblast Stone Mountain. No one will remove a statue of Tecumseh.

As for Nathan Bedford Forreat, fuck him, he deserves to be removed.

[Plane]

As for Nathan Bedford Forreat, fuck him, he deserves to be removed.

  Not really, remember , you had been told his story in reverse.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Forrest was a seller of slaves and the guy who founded the Klan.
He was pretty much what everyone hates about the Confederates.

If it was up to me, I'd move his statue to some private place, maybe a cemetery.

He is a historical pariah with no real redeeming qualities.

[Plane]

............... and the guy who founded the Klan.

Error!

Opposite of true!

We covered this.

Half of the hatred of the Confederacy is like this .

The other half is more justified.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Get fucking serious.

The Confederacy was a totally execrable organization. A few plantation owners (who did not even have to fight: itf you owned 20 slaves, you were exempt) who lathered up a bunch of uneducated rednecks to defend their corrupt system. It was similar to the way that DeMInt and the Kochs get the ignorant teabaggers to support them. Armies of Joe the Plumbers who have nary a chance of buying out the boss are quite similar to armies of poor Whites  waiting to strike it rich so they could buy some cheap land and a few Negroes to clear it.

The Confederate States of America sucked. It deserved to die. What did not deserve to die were all the unfortunates who died defending and attacking it. Americans were simply less competent than South Americans and Mexicans, that abolished slavery with Independence. Brazil had more slaves than anyone, and slavery was abolished without Civil War.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a totally reprehensible character, a murderer and a demogoigue. Nothing at all worthy of honor by anyone.

[Plane]

  I suppose that made up complaints are indications that there are not enough real complaints.

  So how do you consider the shutting down of the KKK for a generation, Worthwhile?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Should we claim that when GM stopped building the Vega and Ford stopped making Pintois this was a triumph?
Or should we simply conclude that the damned things were designed to be unreliable and dangerous from the beginning?

Forrest started the Klan, and selling memberships in it became a scam, so he shut it down. Most likely because someone in the Freedmen's Bureau told him that he was a dead man if he did not shut it down. There was not a lot of law in the South after the war, that was why the Klan was successful. It was in a state of anarchy a lot of the time.

No, Forrest was not any sort of hero for shutting down the Klan, anymore than a guy who shits in the park and then cleans it up is a hero of hygiene. Gimme a break.

He does not deserve to have his damned statue in a public park, though it being there is hardly a major matter.

[hnumpah]

I think if you read most histories of the Klan, or watch any of the numerous histories on the History channel, Discovery, et al, Nathan Bedford Forrest is not mentioned as a founder of the Ku Klux Klan. He led it at one time, and disbanded it; his actions were, at times, deplorable; but he is not honored for being the leader of the Klan, a racist, or slave trader - he is honored for being a brilliant cavalry commander, albeit in a losing cause.

If you want to nitpick, Washington and Jefferson both owned slaves, and as such more than likely bought and sold slaves. My point, in posting the article, is our history - American, white, black, northern, southern, any fucking way you want to look at it - is our history, good, bad, or indifferent, whether you agree with it or not. Where you might see a monument to some great leader, others might see a reminder of a painful past. If you want to be politically correct and remove the ones that are offensive to you, be prepared to remove those - perhaps of your heroes - that offend others.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am not in any position to place or move any statues of anyone.

History is often painful, I realize. But there are better places to put up monuments than public parks. Museums come to mind, since they could display information on all sides of some controversial issue.

Paraguay has had two particularly brutal dictators, Doctor Francia and  José Solano López, and both of them are printed on the money and what is left of them entombed in the Panteón de los Héroes.  Dr. Francia died, the say, of natural causes, and one of his servants was said to have thrown him to some crocodiles who were used to eating scraps along the riverbank where Dr Francia lived. He is in what appears to be a very small bundle.The other heroes are in regular sized coffins.

When I was there, I noted that Gen. Alfredo Stroessner, the last brutal dictator, was not present. I guess he did not make the cut.

[Plane]

Forrest started the Klan, ....

You again assert this ?

It isn't so.

NBF accepted the leadership of the KKK and was leader for one year .

Then he closed it.

I certainly can't prove that he joined it for the purpose of closing it , but he certainly didn't make an insurgency of it .

At that time NBF was the most respected man in this quarter of the country, who else could have closed down the klan at all?

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest