DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: kimba1 on May 10, 2013, 02:54:57 PM
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I checked this public school has like over 85% minorities and most with poor economic backgrounds . But all we hear is how publics school are doing badly. Ok more than half are chinese but that shouldn't mean athing. These are poor chinese with gang ties.
https://alhs-sfusd-ca.schoolloop.com/academy/biotech/overview
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I know this school because it's amile from my house and i had family that used to go there.
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I think you answered your own question, Kimba. Not enough are of the right race. If the media were to spend any attention, the wrong race would be getting the attention, I'm afraid
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I read alot of how public school are failing but some of these school has chinese kids and i don't recall any mention them performing badly. Not trying to cause trouble.
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And alas, most of those public schools that are failing are predomnantly African American, not Chinese. Not to mention the vast majority of those schools are predominantly run by Democrats and Liberals. Just saying
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Well its not exactly possible to fill many school with chinese since thiers not that many of us around. Also not exactly visible group. My town has a dwindling african amrican population;but the remaining ones are very visible . Being resposible tax payer is an invisable life.
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But all we hear is how publics school are doing badly.
Kimba....I'm not sure what your point is?
The public schools are failing....
But that doesnt mean every public school in America is failing.
There are exceptions to almost all rules,
But because exceptions happen doesn't mean the over-all conclusion is not right.
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True
But i the overall hurts the image of the ones that does well. I've talk to many parents who decided to not the put thier kids to public school and not a single one even knew a good public school existed. All these public complaint about the state of school hardly of ever mention that not all achools have these problems. I know one parent who believe her daughter will get raped if she puts her in school and she's the kind of person who does due deligence . But of course she goes too far on the matter. I swear i'm goona write abook on her .
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American schools are not as good as they should be, but they are not failing. Failing would be if the students learned nothing useful. From a technical standpoint, a Muslim madrassa in which the sole curriculum was to memorize the Koran would be a failed school. Medieval education was certainly like this in the pre Renaissance period. Most of what was taught was nonsense. There was a Chair of Astrology at the University of Salamanca until Napoleon invaded in the early 1800's.
What we have now is a rejection by many of the right wingers like Glenn Beck that a core curriculum for the entire country is evil and should be rejected,
We will never have better schools until the essentials are universally taught everywhere: this would include oral and written English, mathematics and the basics of all the sciences for starters.
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American schools are not as good as they should be, but they are not failing.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZPjE_WSM2SQ/TxAmVmkz9sI/AAAAAAAAFFc/msOIM-VRn6U/s1600/CBS+Evening+News+2011+logo+%2528%25C2%25A9+2012+CBS+News%2529.jpg)
Documentary Gives U.S. Schools a Failing Grade
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-6895313.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-6895313.html)
(http://www.hannaleecommunications.com/news/LogoCBS.jpg)
Nearly 80 percent of New York City high school graduates
need to relearn basic skills before they can enter the City University?s
community college system.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/ (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/)
(http://www.firebomberpublications.com/USA%20Today%20Logo.jpg)
Report: Half of U.S. schools fail federal standards
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2011-12-15/schools-federal-standards/51949126/1 (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2011-12-15/schools-federal-standards/51949126/1)
(http://www.onedayswages.org/sites/default/files/all/ABC-World-News-Logo.jpg)
Failing Reports on U.S. Schools
Despite billions of dollars spent in the past quarter-century,
the newest report finds high school graduation rates have
actually dropped over the last 25 years.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=4732319&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=4732319&page=1)
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Ouch
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Barbara Eden went to that school.
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This does not mean that the students did not learn anything. It means that they did not learn enough, or the right things to succeed in college. That is why there needs to be a national core curriculum of subjects that everyone must master to graduate, and that there be adequate competency tests to assure that this happens. This has been done in other countries and could be done here.
Most of the students that entered my college were poor readers and perfectly awful at math. Few could tell me how I determined grades on tests. For example, if you missed 12 of 35 questions, what is the percentage correct? What is the grade on a ten point scale? (65.7%, D)
The college got a large grant to provide tutors and computer programs in a lab to help students. There were 35 computers and one or two tutors available from 8:00AM until 5 PM,until no one showed up before 8:00 AM for a month, then they went from 9:00 to 6:30.
There were rarely more than three students in the lab. At least 70% of the freshmen scored below the minimum HS completion requirements for the State of Florida.
Unless race has something to do with gumption, this is not a racial problem. My experience is that students do not study well or adequately, and they lack the will to challenge themselves to improve. The problem is always, what does the teacher do when a valid exam is given and 75% of the class fails? Do you fail them all?
Most school districts will fire a teacher if he fails 75% of the students.
So what happens is that grades are "curved".
I never curved any grades. I did give students a way to pass by providing an opportunity to score 100% on homework, by resubmitting it, and by giving daily grades for class participation. That way, those who missed too many classes failed themselves. I was considered to be a hard teacher.
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This does not mean that the students did not learn anything.
Good thing no one ever claimed that. Xo, and his army of strawmen ::)
It means that they did not learn enough, or the right things to succeed in college.
Which is by definition, FAILURE, despite the billions, upon billions of tax dollars we pump into the system, more poured in each and every year, after year, after year
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Why don't you go fix it, genius?
The righties do not want any sort of national standards. In FL only public schools have to require that students pass a basic competency exam, and the right wingers want to give vouchers so more students can go to these non evaluated schools. The left barely understands education, the right seems to think that daily prayers to Jeezus and a return to McGuffy Readers are all we need.
The problem is that students have far more things that they can do with their time than study. When I was in elementary school, I went to the library every week and checked out three or four books, which I read cover to cover. This helped me to expand my vocabulary and my knowledge of the world. Now students play Nintendo games and master joystick tactics, which do not help with literacy, math or general knowledge.
My teachers encouraged us to read, but I did not do it because they told me, I did it because it was more exciting to read about the Hardy Boys than to watch TV or listen to the radio. In the same way, teachers are mostly not to blame for students lack of literacy. I spent 24 hours in school, and easily 40 hours reading every week.
It is easy for a moron to judge. Solving the problem is harder, and morons are not good at it. They would prefer to beat up teachers because they insist on collective bargaining and vote for Democrats.
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Why don't you go fix it, genius?
If I had the power, I would. What I do know, is that it'll never be fixed if the Teachers unions are still running it. Those that run the unions (not to be confused with the the millions of teachers themselves, but their union bosses) don't include the children's education as their top priority. Job security is. As such, they'll fight any reforms that have actually been demonstrated as improving education, because of the potential of competition that would hurt current teachers' job security. What was that recent program out of DC that nearly EVERY parent thought was great, and WAS improving education, but because it ran counter to teachers unions and their job security, it's being cancelled at the end of the school year.
Not to mention that its tax dollars that pay for it, and the teachers' beneifts and pensions, which keep going up, placing more obligation of the tax payers to pay for it. I don't think I need to remind some here of the exponential teacher salaries and pensions that CA is obligated to pay its teachers and school administrators.
So yea, if I had the power, I'd fix it......and here's a hint, it doesnt involve or require even MORE $$$'s, than we're already pouring into a failing system. Only an ignorant moron would believe that we simply need to add more $$$$'s
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Hmm
Not really sure competition will help; also job security is a tricky thing if it's removed we don't know if thiers enough pro teacher enviro sentiment to staff these schools. You stated teacher gets good pay. But these same teacher also buy thier own supplies for the kids sometimes. This focus to fix teachers is can backfire. My niece has a offer for better pay overseas. So its possible america itself may not fanancially compete in retaining teachers as another factor.i do notice quite afew teachers has done a teaching stint from abroad
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Hmm...Not really sure competition will help
I'm confident it would, since it helps facilitate one to do a better job of .... whatever, and works ....whever its been tried. The one area that its really been prevented from occuring is in the Public schools......and we can tangibly see those results
also job security is a tricky thing if it's removed we don't know if thiers enough pro teacher enviro sentiment to staff these schools.
Job security for the sake of simply job security, helps not only maintain the status quo but allows bad teachers to remain entrenched.
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The thing is i know teachers who left for lower pay to work at private schools. So thier is other factors involved.
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That kinda helps reinforce my point, as it relates to Public Schools. Private schools have greater competition, easier to fire bad teachers, & more opportunity for good teachers to flourish
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XO says:
That is why there needs to be a national core curriculum of subjects that everyone must master to graduate, and that there be adequate competency tests to assure that this happens. This has been done in other countries and could be done here.
Sounds like NCLB.
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I kinda doubt competition is the reason teachers go to private schools. How about being allowed to teach students? I heard thats the reason teachers leave public school and going to private school and one i teacher i know was a hardcore union member . She taught drama at my nephews high school.
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Never said it was a reason for teachers to go anywhere. I said its one of the main incentives in bettering oneself/organization/institution. When there's competition, there's a sigificant motivation factor that's absent when there is no competition. Its one of the main reasons anything improves. And it's one of the main things missing in Public Education
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But whats the competition to go against?
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Other schools, out performing them and their test scores
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NCLB had the right FOCUS but the wrong way of setting criteria and testing results. It was better than doing nothing.
In education, the competition is not one student against another, nor one school against another, but the student against his innate ignorance. Everyone is born ignorant. Education seeks to replace ignorance with knowledge.
In education there should be no losers. Only winners.
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Who said there has to be a loser? Is that one of the other reasons there's such a knee jerk negative reaction to competition in schools......the ignorant notion that there has to be a loser??
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I believe that has been the core impression of competition. I hear that quote abit. Pretty alot of sports minded people will back it up
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Well, I guess it's all about perspective. Is the Silver medal winner in the Olympic 100meter dash a "loser"? Is the team that made it to the World Series, but came out on the short end "a loser". No, it means they didn't win. Competition breeds motivation. Motivation is the thing teachers try so hard to harness in their students. Some teachers have a gift for bringing it out in their students, most don't. Competition is the cornerstone to pushing/motivating one's self to do better, whether its themself personally or yes, other students. Do we put a stop to all spelling bee competitions because, *gasp* there's going to be losers??
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Personally i believe everyone who made it to the olympics is a winner. I would love to be good enough to be in it.
But wouldn't competion encourage teachers to pass students who really didn't earn it? Private schools and charter schools has better scores by picking who goes to thier school. Also anther factor why teacher take lower pay to go to private school.
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Is that one of the other reasons there's such a knee jerk negative reaction to competition in schools......the ignorant notion that there has to be a loser??
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There is ALWAYS a loser when you have a competition. Usually one winner and many losers.
There do not need to be ANY losers at all. In other countries they manage quite well to focus on educating ALL the children without focusing on winners and losers.
Take traditional HS athletics: you have several teams, baseball, football, basketball, track. Maybe together they have 10% of the student body, but the get 90% of the attention, equipment, expenditures. The fat kids, the scrawny kids, the kids with poor coordination... they get no attention at all, and THEY are the ones who need the exercise.
HS teachers do not control the curriculum, school boards do, by the way. And most of the teachers are not bad teachers. Whet sucks is the way the curriculum is devised. In Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Germany and other countries, HS graduates leave schoo;l very fluent in English: in the US, very few manage to become fluent. The fault is NOT the teachers, it is the curriculum: the idea that foreign language fluency can be achieved in a regular classroom for 45 minutes a day for two or three years is a faulty one. In Sweden and the Netherlands, subject material classes in sciences, math and such are taught in English. Nearly the entire country is bilingual.
We do not have teachers that can teach anything but foreign languages in anything other than English.
Stupid sirs would have us ban all unions from schools and fire any teachers who are not asshole Republicant's. Like that would work.
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Is that one of the other reasons there's such a knee jerk negative reaction to competition in schools......the ignorant notion that there has to be a loser??
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There is ALWAYS a loser when you have a competition.
And the poor children, with their all too fragile self esteem just wouldn't be able to handle that they didn't win?? Is it any wonder our Public School system is such a failure. At least Kimba's got the right mindset, that those competing are all winners. Cudos, Kimba
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Is it any wonder our Public School system is such a failure.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/347973/two-moms-vs-common-core (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/347973/two-moms-vs-common-core)
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And take a guess as to which party is predominantly in charge of "the curriculum" that xo was placing so much blame of our public school system failures upon
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mONOPOLYS THAT CAN STIFLE COMPETITION DO NOT NEED TO PRODUCE A GOOD PRODUCT , THEY NEED TO SQUASH THE BETTER PRODUCT PRODUCERS.
cOMPETITION BETWEEN PRODUCERS AND PROVIDERS DRIVES DOWN PRICE AND DRIVES UP QUALITY, WHY IS SCHOOLING SUPPOSED TO OPERATE IN A DIFFRENT UNIVERSE?
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Spot on, Plane 8)
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Competition between providers of goods and services is not the same as unnecessary competition between schoolchildren.
Again, the real competition in education is between knowledge and ignorance, not between children.
There is not a problem if Toyota crushes Nissan's tender young ego, sending it into fits of despair and rejection.
Children and their education is NOT LIKE the hawking of consumer products.
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Unnecessary to whom?? The unions yea. as Plane points out, removing competition from them, squashes any need for teachers to improve how to perform their curriculum
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Teachers are CONSTANTLY trying to improve their efficiency. I do not know of one single teacher I have ever worked with that did not try new techniques all the time. Unions do not develop curriculum, Unions have the function of collectively bargaining and enforcing the terms of contracts. I belonged to the NEA when I taught in Washington State, and the union never made any suggestions as to what I could or could not do in the classroom. The issues were pay, benefits, classroom size and extracurricular duties, none of which had a single thing to deal with the curriculum.
Quite simply, sirs, you are full of shit and have no goddamned clue about education. A true lumpenproletarian droid, you believe ever shovelfull of crap the Oigarchy flings your way.
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Never said they weren't. The problem is the many teachers who don't, and have no need to, since they have no competition to improve in any way.
Quite simply Xo, you're so blinded in your ideology, and have drowned in so much Obama coolaide, you're clueless to current realty as to why our Public Education system, is such an utter failure, despite the billions of $$$$ we pump into it
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There is no ideology, you spectacularly ignorant shit.
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Xo response SOP
#1 - argue points never made
#2 - try to change the subject
#3 - launch personal insults
#4 - repeat
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What happened to no child left behind, didn't that solve all the problems? What about Hollywood Ronny, couldn't he fix this? Since 1980 we've had 20 years of Republican presidents and they couldn't solve these problems?
BSB
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Probably because Democrats & the unions have been controlling the curriculums, for over 20years, and the cries of still more money haven't done a damn thing. So don't even go "we just haven't invested enough" there
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The fact is that in my field, foreign language instruction, there are not enough language labs, nor are there a sufficient number of qualified language teachers to even come close to teaching any useful fluency in any FL.
All of Western Europe is ahead of the US. We are perhaps on a par with maybe, Bulgaria.
There are no Liberal, Conservative or any other groups, other than language teachers themselves, that even have a clue as to how to graduate bilingual and trilingual American students. The professional organizations, AATSP, AATG, AATF all see change as unlikely and impossible.
"I took Spanish in High School, but I can't remember a thing," "No problemo" and "Correctamundo" are almost national slogans. Note: the latter two are NEVER uttered by native speakers, except when poking fun at monolingual Americans.
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What happened to no child left behind, didn't that solve all the problems? What about Hollywood Ronny, couldn't he fix this? Since 1980 we've had 20 years of Republican presidents and they couldn't solve these problems?
BSB
Perhaps the resistance by the teachers unions and the job protecting action of teaching to the test completely undermined the intended purpose of NCLB which even XO said had merits but its implementation left much to be desired.
Reagan didn't believe the fed had a role in education, he believed that function belonged to the states.
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What happened to no child left behind, didn't that solve all the problems? What about Hollywood Ronny, couldn't he fix this? Since 1980 we've had 20 years of Republican presidents and they couldn't solve these problems?
BSB
Perhaps the resistance by the teachers unions and the job protecting action of teaching to the test completely undermined the intended purpose of NCLB which even XO said had merits but its implementation left much to be desired.
Reagan didn't believe the fed had a role in education, he believed that function belonged to the states.
Look, if the public schools have fallen that far, over this long a period of time, we are all responsible. All of us. Republicans, Democrats, teachers, parents, unions, Christians, Buddhists, lawyers, doctors, football players, state government, federal government, everybody. Putting it at the feet of any one group is nonsense. And to correct it we all need to be on notice, and proceed accordingly.
BSB
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Of course right off the bat anyone can see that there aren't enough guns in the schools, or Blackhawks flying over them.
BSB
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If standards are left to the individual states, then we will NEVER have any national standards.
This is ONE COUNTRY, not 51. Reagan was wrong about that.
The differences between states are used by corporations to play one off against the others for freebies and tax breaks, just like the pro sports teams use the threat of moving to bilk the citizens out of tax money that could be used for better purposes.
I was thrilled that Steve Ross, the bazillionaire owner of the Dolphins failed miserably to get the state to allow him to collect hotel taxes all year to refurbish his stadium. He paid 10 million for a special election, which was called off then the state Legislature refused to allow any tax authority to be given to support stadiums. The people got so regally screwed by the Marlins that finally they managed to defeat this stupidity.
Taxing tourists to support stadiums is TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. Tourists mostly do noit come here to watch football or any sport.
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Unions do NOT CONTROL curriculula in any school district.
They bargain about salaries, benefits and class size. They do NOT decide what is taught.
Often, teachers unions have agreed to lower wages so that better equipment can be made available.
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Unions do NOT CONTROL curriculula in any school district.
They bargain about salaries, benefits and class size. They do NOT decide what is taught.
They generally bankroll the folks that do, and in the process help dictate both the curriculum and the all fringe benefits & salaries, payed for by our taxes
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What happened to no child left behind, didn't that solve all the problems? What about Hollywood Ronny, couldn't he fix this? Since 1980 we've had 20 years of Republican presidents and they couldn't solve these problems?
BSB
Perhaps the resistance by the teachers unions and the job protecting action of teaching to the test completely undermined the intended purpose of NCLB which even XO said had merits but its implementation left much to be desired.
Reagan didn't believe the fed had a role in education, he believed that function belonged to the states.
Look, if the public schools have fallen that far, over this long a period of time, we are all responsible. All of us. Republicans, Democrats, teachers, parents, unions, Christians, Buddhists, lawyers, doctors, football players, state government, federal government, everybody. Putting it at the feet of any one group is nonsense. And to correct it we all need to be on notice, and proceed accordingly.
BSB
You asked what happened with NCLB, i gave you an answer. Most of that program is still intact under Obama. Maybe he too recognizes the soft bigotry of low expectations.
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Well, I don't expect much from you, but that's just realistic, not soft bigotry.
BSB
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My apologys for the earlyer all caps.
Soon I will be sending my computer in for warranty work and your guys will have to carry on without me for a month or so.
That the children be in competition is hardly the point, if having the children compete motivates the children then it might be a good thing , but by no means is it the only or single best motivation for children, learning is the point of school and competion should only be used when it furthers learning.
But how about competing for the children?
Schools that could cash in vouchers could profit well from attracting a greater number of children , even poor ones, so a school that gained a great reputation for teaching well could profit thereby, and schools that had lousy reputation for learning , safety , disapline or anything elese could die a death of profit starvation.
This would be power inthe hands of the people , primarily parents.
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Well, I don't expect much from you, but that's just realistic, not soft bigotry.
BSB
Student of the Xo school of responding
#1 - argue points never made
#2 - try to change the subject
#3 - launch personal insults
#4 - repeat
You know, I really don't know why so much effort is applied to insulting others, myself included. When Xo goes into his 3rd grade insults, or BnonameB coes into his superiorthanthou rants, what exactly does that accomplish?? Does the recipient of the response say "oh, he's right".? Unlikely. If anything a "zinger" is being readied to be hurled back. Here we have a pretty good subject, but some folks are so fixated with the status quo, they don't care. And you know when you're making headway against the "other side" when they start trying to spread the blame to everyone. The blame is NEVER on their party or interests, its always on those greedy mean evil conservatives or those ignorant wrong leftists. But when they can't defend the indefensible, then the blame is on everyone.
The difference between many of us who lean right vs those on the left is that coolaide factor. That if the circumstances were reversed, and it was Bush running things, a Condi Rice that was running the State Dept, that then altered the talking points that came out of the CIA following this Benghazi attack, we'd be expecting resignations, Rice included. We'd be demanding resignations from the head of the IRS if they were found abusing a Federal agency in targeting liberal causes and groups
But when it's the left, well....it's "everyone's fault", nothing could be done, just shut up, and let the Government continue to steamroll over you, dammit
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Well, I don't expect much from you, but that's just realistic, not soft bigotry.
BSB
That's OK, your opinion of me means little in the larger scheme of things.
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BT, Sirs, did you guys say something?
BSB
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Only something of substance and pertinence. As such, I suppose I can understand how you missed it
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Wow
So much has happen since i was gone. My meds was not working so i couldn't do much.
This post gone beyond what i can respond now.
My two cents. Education has too many factors and involve too large amount of varity of kids for cookie cutter solutions. But i do wish english this countries primary language would get more attention without giving the student the impression they cant learn other languages.
By attention I mean writing clearly. No one should ever say thats good enough.
I might not be able to respond very quickly still not recovered
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But i do wish english this countries primary language would get more attention without giving the student the impression they cant learn other languages.
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Most English speaking Americans have studied some other language and still can't use it in any useful way, so this is simply a reflection of school boards and the education establishment., who are almost always linguistically illiterate.
Foreign language educators are mostly native speakers and have little influence.