DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: hnumpah on April 27, 2016, 06:51:11 AM
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DENVER (AP) -- The Colorado Supreme Court on Monday declined to take up the case of a suburban Denver baker who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding, letting stand a previous ruling that the Masterpiece Cakeshop owner must provide service despite his Christian beliefs.
Charlie Craig and David Mullins, who were refused service by baker Jack Phillips in 2012, applauded the development.
Craig said they persisted with the case throughout a complicated legal process because they felt it was important to set the precedent that discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation was not only wrong but illegal.
"We didn't want anyone to have to go through what we did," Craig said.
Attorney Nicolle Martin, who represents Phillips, said they had not yet decided whether to ask Colorado's highest court to reconsider, or approach the U.S. Supreme Court. Martin says she is surprised the Colorado court would not consider the case.
"This is a matter that affects all Americans, not just people of faith," Martin said.
The seven-member Colorado Supreme Court said in a brief announcement that it decided as a group not to take up the case.
However, Chief Justice Nancy E. Rice and Justice Nathan B. Coats would have considered hearing arguments in several areas, including whether applying Colorado's anti-discrimination law to force Phillips to "create artistic expression" in the form of a wedding cake violated his constitutional free speech rights.
Phillips declined to make a cake for Craig and Mullins, who were married in Massachusetts and planned a celebration in Colorado. The couple filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, which ruled in December 2013 that Phillips discriminated against them and ordered him to change his store policy against making cakes for gay weddings or face fines. The Colorado Court of Appeals also ruled against him.
Phillips referred questions from The Associated Press to his lawyer Monday. He previously said he has no problem serving gay people at his store, but that making a wedding cake for a same-sex wedding would violate his Christian beliefs.
Such issues have been considered by courts and legislators across the country.
A new North Carolina law prevents local and state government from mandating protections for LGBT people in the private sector or at stores and restaurants. The law suffered a blow when a federal appeals court issued an opinion that threatens part of the law requiring students to use bathrooms in line with their gender at birth in public schools and universities.
Colorado lawmakers introduced a bill in February that would have blocked the state from taking any action that may burden a person's religious freedom unless it was the least restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest. A House committee indefinitely postponed discussion on the bill.
Mullins, part of the Colorado couple denied a wedding cake, said he saw moves like the North Carolina legislature's as exceptions.
"We really feel like America is moving in the direction of accepting LGBT people," Mullins told the AP.
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"We really feel like America is moving in the direction of accepting LGBT people.Because when they don't we will sue the pants off them"
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Phillips declined to make a cake for Craig and Mullins, who were married in Massachusetts and planned a celebration in Colorado.
I didn't know this part.
What did they do , shop every bakery in the nation until they found one all the way out west that would refuse them?
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More likely that store has been turning down service for years and eventually it caught up with them. Meaning this incident was going to happen if they kept doing a business that involves weddings in colorado.
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This was, as Kimba says, a test case.
Nothing involving wedding cakes is of serious consequence to anyone in reality.
I can side with the gay couple here, but this is not a big deal so long as wedding cakes are the "right" that is disputed.
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Looking forward to the class action lawsuit to be filed against Springsteen now, for failing to provide a service he had pledged to provide, but decided against it based on some apparent moral beliefs
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It all depends on the contract. You may wait forever.
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actually this may have some far reaching potential. not about rights or anything related to that. we`re talking about deva musicians and glass jaw concert cancellations. I gave up going to concerts because I got tired of risking my job the next day if they don`t feel like playing and we wasted our time waiting. at least the boss gave notice. if thiers a serious lawsuit it may hopefully give other musicians pause because they flake for way lamer reasons.
we all know most musicains would make vastly more money if they actually show up.
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It all depends on the contract. You may wait forever.
Kinda like you and the 2nd Amendment?
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It all depends on the contract. You may wait forever.
No , if we are really getting rid of the first amendment , it will be gone for us all.
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More likely that store has been turning down service for years and eventually it caught up with them. Meaning this incident was going to happen if they kept doing a business that involves weddings in colorado.
No.
Homosexual weddings are a recent enough development that no one can have a years long history of trying to stay away from them.
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It all depends on the contract. You may wait forever.
No , if we are really getting rid of the first amendment , it will be gone for us all.
BINGO!!
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Once more, there is no fucking bingo.
Baking cakes or refusing to bake them is NOT a form of speech.
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Should a Black baker be required by law to bake a cake for a Klu-Klux-Klan event?
Should an American Palestinian baker be required by law to bake a cake for an Orthodox Jewish couple
getting married that are moving to an Israeli West Bank settlement after the wedding?
Should a gay baker be required by law to bake a cake for a traditional marriage conference?
Should an American Muslim baker be required by law to bake cakes for gay weddings?
Should an American Jewish baker be required by law to bake cakes for a Nazi convention?
Should a Black Lives Matter baker be required by law to bake cakes for a Baltimore Police Officers Picnic?
Should a Pro-Choice baker be required by law to bake a cake for a Pro Life conference?
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If they want to be licensed and permitted to run a business open to the public, absolutely.
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Once more, there is no fucking bingo.
Baking cakes or refusing to bake them is NOT a form of speech.
Nor does ANYONE have a right to have a cake baked for them. The kicker being when xo goes off on a some form of rant how something someone said isn't a "bingo", makes it all the more so. Thanks xo
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Texas Cottage Food Law signed into law by Governor Rick Perry will help prevent the homo-agenda
from being forced upon people that do not desire to have their religious freedoms violated, because
bakers under the Texas Cottage Food Law do not have to be licensed.
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That might be a way around it, if you're willing to take a chance on food-borne illness...
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Which is why you have laws to sue companies, that could be so negligent
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I'm guessing if they bake wedding cakes they must bake them for all , but the court did state that at least some of the justices would have liked to consider whether the deorating of the cake was the speech issue.
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The black live matter one should since they did publicly state they support police. But only in the briefest way possible.
The gay baker should as long as the cake say nothing blatantly against gays. But somehow people cannot tell the difference
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I'm guessing if they bake wedding cakes they must bake them for all , but the court did state that at least some of the justices would have liked to consider whether the deorating of the cake was the speech issue.
If I was a Christian baker I just would stop offering wedding cakes and concentrate on other areas of baking.
I use two bakeries for treats for our customers and they both do not do wedding cakes.
So there are ways to avoid the homo-agenda....thank you very much!
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If I were a Nazi convention, I don't think I would want to eat a cake baked by a Jewish baker, Nor y=would I want to make any Jew richer.
But aside from the idiotic aspects of people who think Jeezuz wants them to refuse to bake cakes, Hnumpah is right.
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A right is a right is a right. People in this country, have a constitutional right not to be forced to turn from their religious beliefs (which would include not performing a function, no different than Bruce Spingsteen. Actually more so, since the Boss isn't declining based in anything religion, but some manner of principals).
What people don't have a right to, is cake
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What they do have a right to, if they walk into an establishment that does business with the general public, is to be treated like anyone else, regardless of race, religion, creed, sexual preference, or whatever. If the business owner doesn't wish to treat everyone the same, he is free to close his business.
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And they are treated like everyone else......until that time they demand that the shopkeeper/baker/florist/MUSICIAN, or whatever must perform a function that runs counter to their 1st amendment rights. If the Boss gets a pass, which effects exponentially more people, so should the baker
No one has a right to cake
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If they want to be licensed and permitted to run a business open to the public, absolutely.
You want to live in a country like that?
I really want to keep the first amendment , free speech should not be strictly for the press and "artists" it is for us all.
I really don't want the Government to define "speech" and "art", they are no good at it.
http://notesonameal.com/(http://notesonameal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mike-mccarey-cake-5.jpg)
http://www.knstrct.com/art-blog/2015/6/8/life-as-a-curious-outsider-an-interview-with-artist-eckart-hahn (http://static1.squarespace.com/static/51eed906e4b0953024980af9/t/55757216e4b0573e634d6964/1433760279530/%22Life+as+a+curious+outsider%22%3A+An+Interview+with+Artist+Eckart+Hahn?format=1000w)
http://www.artisticcakes.com/shaped-cakes.html
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A right is a right is a right. People in this country, have a constitutional right not to be forced to turn from their religious beliefs (which would include not performing a function, no different than Bruce Spingsteen. Actually more so, since the Boss isn't declining based in anything religion, but some manner of principals)...
Which is why you have laws to sue...
[/quote
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And we've come full circle
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Yup. Been there. Done that. Colorado Supreme Court has made their decision.
8)
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And like RvW, it was the wrong one
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LOL, that's a matter of opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...But it's been interesting.
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With all due respect, H, 98% of everything here is an opinion. Your belief that the Colorado Supreme court got it right, is an opinion. Xo's position that the Supreme court got it wrong with Citizens United is an opinion. Anything you believe the court got wrong, is an opinion.
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Anything not in the Bible is to sirs, an opinion.
Things that contradict words spoken by flaming shrubbery are wrongful opinions.
Luckily, flaming shrubbery has been mute for the past 30 centuries or so.
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And xo, gets it wrong again. What a shocker
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Are you claiming that the Lord does not assume the role of talking shrubbery in your favorite Holy Book?
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I have no clue what that's supposed to mean. I simply demonstrated how wrong again you were in implying that I've claimed everything in the bible is some supposed scientific fact.
Boy, if we had a dollar for every claim you've gotten wrong, we might be able to pay off the national debt
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A right is a right is a right. People in this country, have a constitutional right not to be forced to turn from their religious beliefs (which would include not performing a function, no different than Bruce Spingsteen. Actually more so, since the Boss isn't declining based in anything religion, but some manner of principals)...
If I were a Nazi convention, I don't think I would want to eat a cake baked by a Jewish baker, Nor y=would I want to make any Jew richer.
But aside from the idiotic aspects of people who think Jeezuz wants them to refuse to bake cakes, Hnumpah is right.
So Nazis are much more fastidious than LGBTs?
And we've come full circle
[
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XO why is your heart full of so much anger and animosity towards followers of Christ?
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It is interesting....
H has a point about some Evangelical Christians, practically thumping you over the head with their bible, to repent and come to Christ. It can literally be a turn off. I know...I've been on both sides.
For folks that don't want to believe....that's fine. I'll pray for them, even feel sorry for them, knowing what they're going to miss out on, but I'm neither going to denigrate them, demean their lack of faith, or...beat them over the head with a Bible until they come around
And yet, you have almost a vicious effort by some non-believers, that make it a practice to do exactly the above to believers...to denigrate them, demean their faith, and beat them over the head with scientific jargon, as if God has parameters limited to human understanding of the scientific method
Is it because......they're worried there is a God, but since they don't want to believe in one, they have to make it an agenda that as few others believe as well?? I really don't know....its a mystery to me, as it makes no sense, the level of demeaning rhetoric one comes across from non-believers, when they come across someone with faith
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It is interesting....
H has a point about some Evangelical Christians, practically tumping you over the head with their bible, to repent and come to Christ. It can literally be a turn off. I know...I've been on both sides.
For folks that don't want to believe....that's fine. I'll pray for them, even feel sorry for them, knowing what they're going to miss out on, but I'm neither going to denigrate them, demean their lack of faith, or...beat them ove the head with a Bible until they come around
And yet, you have almost a viscious effort by some non-believers, that make it a practice to do exactly the above to believers...to denigrate them, demean their faith, and beat them over the head with scientific jargon, as if God has parameters limited to human understanding of the scientific method
Is it because......they're worried there is a God, but since they don't want to believe in one, they have to make it an agenda that as few others believe as well?? I really don't know....its a mystery to me, as it makes no sense, the level of demeaning rhetoric one comes across from non-believers, when they come across someone with faith
Had to look and see which thread we're in, seems like they all turn into some anti religious rant anymore.... I keep wondering who pissed in XO's Wheaties. Damn, at some point I saw a thread by Kimba wanting to DISCUSS atheism, so I figured why not. Things went along fairly well until XO decided to turn it into an irrational rant every time he posted. I just gave up on it. Hey, have at it guys.
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XO why is your heart full of so much anger and animosity towards followers of Christ?
It isn't. I just see it as a silly narrative.
Jesus died for your sins. A MIRACLE!
But then Jesus rose from the dead. WOW! Another Miracle!
It seems that what has been missed here is the basic problem with dying. The part that people really, really REALLY are averse to is STAYING DEAD.
Being dead for three days would not be all that bad if you could return to the living. Lots of people have had comas and returned and seemed to be dead for a lot longer than Jesus. Generally they don't regret the experience, because they have come back. The real downer about being dead is STAYING DEAD.
Let us note here that the Hebrews and a lot of other religious people sacrifice all sorts of livestock and not one dove, goat, bull or ox ever come back from the dead. Often they are served for the priest's next lunch.
In the case of Jesus, he was eaten symbolically at the Last Supper before he was sacrificed. That is bass ackward, This is my flesh, eat my flesh. This is my blood, drink my blood.
Whoa! Wait a minute, Jesus, you do not have cloven hooves. Humans are not Kosher. Didn't we hear Jesus say that he has come not to change the law but to fulfill it? Drinking blood of any animal is trayf (not kosher). Drinking the blood of a non kosher animal is a major violation of the LAW, not a fulfillment of it.
Now Jesus died, Then he returned a couple of times. and then, *poof!* he disappeared!
He rose from the dead body and all. But then *poof!* he vanished.
One can only suppose that Jesus is still using his body, wherever he is, or perhaps he has left it again and it is lying about on a cloud or perhaps is one of very few bodies in Heaven's cemetery. But it has to be somewhere,
It is the refusal of Christians to discuss topics like this that makes me want to ask them if they have ever even thought about such things.
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Christians don't "refuse to discuss such topics". Quite the opposite. Christians however will disengage in trying to argue against someone(s) who have no intention of "discussion", and would rather denigrate the entire practice, with demeaning slurs and proclamations
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thats what I was trying to cover on my athiest post . I have a friend who gets very indignant about all religions and often calls them myths. hates that parking meters are off on sunday. think they cheat the city of all that church meter money.
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Your friend is an anti-theist not an atheist.
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Your friend is an anti-theist not an atheist.
BT I've heard a lot folks on their death bed change from being an atheist.
XO are you BOTH an anti-theist and an atheist?
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Stand corrected and believe they give athiest a bad name. But my friend is abit of a hypocrite (big surprise) he never ever says anything bad about jews and when i point out christain food restrictions he's critical but when steer the talk about kosher food he tends to be more civil
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I am an agnostic.
There is insufficient evidence that there is a God or that the nature of a God has been adequately defined.
There is also insufficient evidence that the non existence of God can be proven.
The concept is to question all explanations by poking holes in them. That is the road to useful discoveries.
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There is insufficient evidence that there is a God or that the nature of a God has been adequately defined.
There is also insufficient evidence that the non existence of God can be proven.
The concept is to question all explanations by poking holes in them. That is the road to useful discoveries.
What sort of thing would be enough to make an acceptable proof?
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What sort of thing would be enough to make an acceptable proof?
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I would think Jesus returning in some credible manner, speaking in something other than silly parables.
Parables may have worked at one time,but they are on a par with Knock Knock jokes these days.
Paul converted thousands on what turned out to be the false Second Coming.
He told people not to marry, because before the child could be born, Jesus would be back as some sort of ruler.
I do not see this happening.
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What sort of thing would be enough to make an acceptable proof?
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I would think Jesus returning in some credible manner, speaking in something other than silly parables.
Parables may have worked at one time,but they are on a par with Knock Knock jokes these days.
They seem to work well on you.Paul converted thousands on what turned out to be the false Second Coming.
I didn't know about this, where is it found?He told people not to marry, because before the child could be born, Jesus would be back as some sort of ruler.
I do not see this happening.
Jesus has already returned , and Thomas got the proof you are asking for.
I suppose you would have to have been there.
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I would think Jesus returning in some credible manner...
How would you know it was him? Check his drivers' license?
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I honestly believe when christ arrives nobody will be able to identify him. He will be back to square one for our support.
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Careful Kimba.....you're starting to sound like the Taliban now ;)
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i`ve been called that afew times from my anti-thiest friends. wow thats not easy to type
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Imagine Jesus returning, speaking a language spoken by few people today.Imagine Jesus looking like Yassir Arafat.
Jesus is no longer alive in this planet. Strangely., Mary is sighted hundreds of times more often than Jesus.
The Book of Revelation claims that Jesus will return to judge the quick and the dead and to rule for 1000 years, after wich he turns the whole place over to Satan.
Just read the book!