Immigration and our Founders

[Plane]

Not so.

An undesireable Immagrant would be just as undesireable permanantly as he would temporaily.


What sort of person would be a good canadate for citizen but a poor canadate for visitor?


These issues are naturally conflated because there is a lot of overlap , how many overstayed visas are there?

None of that means citizenship and residency are the same thing.

It means that a desireable visitor and a desireable resident have a lot of qualitys in common.

Could you list what makes a good visitor diffrent from a good recruit?

[Universe Prince]

It means that a desireable visitor and a desireable resident have a lot of qualitys in common.

Could you list what makes a good visitor diffrent from a good recruit?

Now you're trying to separate visitor from resident in a manner that indicates you're equating resident with citizen. So let's rephrase. A desirable immigrant and a desirable citizen have qualities in common. Okay. A desirable low level employee and a desirable high level manager have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways those might differ? A desirable ensign and a desirable admiral have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways an ensign and an admiral might differ? Some immigrants may indeed only desire to live here temporarily. So? What is that to you? Some may seek to live here permanently but never desire to become a citizen. So? What is that to you?

[Plane]

It means that a desireable visitor and a desireable resident have a lot of qualitys in common.

Could you list what makes a good visitor diffrent from a good recruit?

Now you're trying to separate visitor from resident in a manner that indicates you're equating resident with citizen. So let's rephrase. A desirable immigrant and a desirable citizen have qualities in common. Okay. A desirable low level employee and a desirable high level manager have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways those might differ? A desirable ensign and a desirable admiral have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways an ensign and an admiral might differ? Some immigrants may indeed only desire to live here temporarily. So? What is that to you? Some may seek to live here permanently but never desire to become a citizen. So? What is that to you?

You are rambleing worse than I do, congradulations , it took me years to develop this.

The diffrence between a good visitor and a good new citizen is entirely  and only the desires of the person in question.

A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland.

The Qualitys we do not want in a visitor overlap 100% with the qualitys we do not want to see in a permanant import. This will remain true even if you define the undesireable quality diffrently .

This conflates so naturally that it is unnatural to try to draw an artificial distinction between the two truely conflated issues.

The people we want to exclude are the same set ,whether we are talking about a week or a lifetime.

[Plane]

[ A desirable ensign and a desirable admiral have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways an ensign and an admiral might differ? ?[/color]

No , what diffrence could there be? 100% of Admirals are former Ensigns.

[Plane]

It means that a desireable visitor and a desireable resident have a lot of qualitys in common.

Could you list what makes a good visitor diffrent from a good recruit?

A desirable low level employee and a desirable high level manager have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways those might differ?

Which level requires more integrity?
Which level requires stupidity?

A higher level of management might require more experience and more proven record of accomplishment  , which he must have gotten while he was lower level.

[Plane]

Some immigrants may indeed only desire to live here temporarily. So? What is that to you? Some may seek to live here permanently but never desire to become a citizen. So? What is that to you?

So it makes no diffrence to you either?

[Universe Prince]

A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland.

So, there is at least one difference.

The Qualitys we do not want in a visitor overlap 100% with the qualitys we do not want to see in a permanant import. This will remain true even if you define the undesireable quality diffrently .

This conflates so naturally that it is unnatural to try to draw an artificial distinction between the two truely conflated issues.

Um, no. The difference between immigration and citizenship is not an artificial distinction. Nor is recognizing the difference unnatural. It is essential if we are to rationally address the immigration issue.

The people we want to exclude are the same set ,whether we are talking about a week or a lifetime.

However true that may be, letting people come into the country is not the same as letting them become citizens of the country. Advocating immigration should be relatively easy is not advocating that becoming a citizen should be easy. Conflating the two issues is either poor argumentation or disingenuous.

Some immigrants may indeed only desire to live here temporarily. So? What is that to you? Some may seek to live here permanently but never desire to become a citizen. So? What is that to you?

So it makes no diffrence to you either?

So what makes no difference?

A desirable ensign and a desirable admiral have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways an ensign and an admiral might differ?

No , what diffrence could there be? 100% of Admirals are former Ensigns.

There is no difference at all? So ensigns and admirals are interchangeable? Then why bother with having rank designations?

A desirable low level employee and a desirable high level manager have a lot of qualities in common. Can you list ways those might differ?

A higher level of management might require more experience and more proven record of accomplishment  , which he must have gotten while he was lower level.

So, there is at least one difference. Or maybe two.

[Plane]

A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland.

So, there is at least one difference.

And what is this diffrence? This mentioned diffrence is a diffrence in his thinking or desires ;and what is that to you?

You do not need any power or right to command his thoughts. If you do not want him to cross the border to become a tourist  , then very certainly you also do not want him to cross the border and never recross it. This should be a matter of a trait or quality that the government has a genuine intrest in excludeing , not merely a quality of his desires being permanent residency or not.

Are you trying to find a seaparation now where you tried to put one?

Immagrants and visitors , new citizens and welcome visitors, are not four issues nor two , who we should allow to cross the border is a single issue.

[Universe Prince]

A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland.

So, there is at least one difference.

And what is this diffrence?

You don't know? You brought it up. Do I have to do everything?

This mentioned diffrence is a diffrence in his thinking or desires ;and what is that to you?

So you do know what the difference is?

You do not need any power or right to command his thoughts.

I did not say a word about commanding the thoughts of anyone or a need to do so. Not sure that has to do with the discussion.

If you do not want him to cross the border to become a tourist  , then very certainly you also do not want him to cross the border and never recross it.

Quite possibly.

This should be a matter of a trait or quality that the government has a genuine intrest in excludeing , not merely a quality of his desires being permanent residency or not.

What should be?

Are you trying to find a seaparation now where you tried to put one?

No. The "separation" already exists. Are you not reading what I say?

Immagrants and visitors , new citizens and welcome visitors, are not four issues nor two

I guess you are not.

 , who we should allow to cross the border is a single issue.

Yes. And I will now repeat: However true that may be, letting people come into the country is not the same as letting them become citizens of the country. Advocating immigration should be relatively easy is not advocating that becoming a citizen should be easy. Conflating the two issues is either poor argumentation or disingenuous.

[Plane]

A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland.

So, there is at least one difference.

And what is this diffrence?

You don't know? You brought it up. Do I have to do everything?

I am just going to declare a win on this point because you have lost track of where you are, there is no diffrence that the government should care about.

This mentioned diffrence is a diffrence in his thinking or desires ;and what is that to you?

So you do know what the difference is?

You do not need any power or right to command his thoughts.

I did not say a word about commanding the thoughts of anyone or a need to do so. Not sure that has to do with the discussion.

If you do not want him to cross the border to become a tourist  , then very certainly you also do not want him to cross the border and never recross it.

Quite possibly.

This should be a matter of a trait or quality that the government has a genuine intrest in excludeing , not merely a quality of his desires being permanent residency or not.

What should be?

Are you trying to find a seaparation now where you tried to put one?

No. The "separation" already exists. Are you not reading what I say?

Immagrants and visitors , new citizens and welcome visitors, are not four issues nor two

I guess you are not.

 , who we should allow to cross the border is a single issue.

Yes. And I will now repeat: However true that may be, letting people come into the country is not the same as letting them become citizens of the country. Advocating immigration should be relatively easy is not advocating that becoming a citizen should be easy. Conflating the two issues is either poor argumentation or disingenuous.

Resolved , that persons qualified to cross the US border are a set  entirely equal to the set of persons qualified to become citizens (if they so desire).

[Universe Prince]

I am just going to declare a win on this point because you have lost track of where you are, there is no diffrence that the government should care about.

I haven't lost track at all. You're the one asking what the meaning of your own statement is. But hey, if declaring a win you haven't earned makes you feel better, you go right ahead.

Resolved , that persons qualified to cross the US border are a set  entirely equal to the set of persons qualified to become citizens (if they so desire).

Nope. Not even according to the post that started this thread. Oops. Did I interfere your being on a roll with declaring victories you didn't achieve?

[Plane]

I am just going to declare a win on this point because you have lost track of where you are, there is no diffrence that the government should care about.

I haven't lost track at all. You're the one asking what the meaning of your own statement is. But hey, if declaring a win you haven't earned makes you feel better, you go right ahead.

Yes you have indeed lost track, you point out a diffrence that isn't there and say that I have, let us review;
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A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland.

Quote from: Universe Prince on May 26, 2010, 11:15:09 PM
So, there is at least one difference.

And what is this diffrence?

You don't know? You brought it up. Do I have to do everything?

What indeed? and where did I bring up a diffrence?

If you do find a diffrence would you please say what it is , and why it is a diffrence that makes a diffrence. I can't find where you have done anything like .

Thanks for  the workout  , I have enjoyed it.

[Universe Prince]

Yes you have indeed lost track, you point out a diffrence that isn't there and say that I have, let us review;

Okay, but let's clean this up a bit.

Plane: The diffrence between a good visitor and a good new citizen is entirely  and only the desires of the person in question. A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland. Universe Prince: So, there is at least one difference. Plane: And what is this diffrence? Universe Prince: You don't know? You brought it up. Do I have to do everything? Plane: What indeed? and where did I bring up a diffrence? If you do find a diffrence would you please say what it is , and why it is a diffrence that makes a diffrence.

Apparently I do have to do everything. Where did you bring up a difference? Well, you said, "The diffrence between a good visitor and a good new citizen is entirely  and only the desires of the person in question." Which you then explained by saying "A visitor we should welcome qualifys the same way as a new citizen we should welcome , only he need not take the visit as seriously if he remains more invested in his origional homeland." If you did not mean to say it was a difference, why call it a difference? Why bring it up at all?

Why does intent to remain or not make a difference? Well, the most obvious reason is probably that one of the requirements for becoming a naturalized citizen is a period several years of residency that clearly we are not going to require of immigrants crossing the border. To insist that all people who want to immigrate here must first have lived here for several years would be 100% stupid.

Please, in the future, do not make statements to me and then insist that I have to explain your statement to you. If you lack understanding of something you say, that isn't my fault.

[Plane]

      Then we are agreed .

      The entire diffrence between a visitor and a prospective new citizen is the thoughts and attitudes of the persons in question.
        So..
        Untill mind reading is perfected ( the government is working on it) the government has no practical recourse but to treat equally the persons who intend to stay and those who intend to return.

[Universe Prince]

Then we are agreed .

I doubt it.

The entire diffrence between a visitor and a prospective new citizen is the thoughts and attitudes of the persons in question.

Nope. Not agreeing to that at all.

So..
Untill mind reading is perfected ( the government is working on it) the government has no practical recourse but to treat equally the persons who intend to stay and those who intend to return.

I'm not sure why, but apparently I need to keep repeating myself.  Letting people come into the country is not the same as letting them become citizens of the country. Advocating immigration should be relatively easy is not advocating that becoming a citizen should be easy. Conflating the two issues is either poor argumentation or disingenuous.