Author Topic: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey  (Read 4280 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« on: March 23, 2007, 07:42:58 AM »
Ankara is deeply unhappy about an effort in the US Congress to pass a bill declaring the 1917 massacre of Armenians by the Turks to be a case of genocide. Turkey has warned it could sever military ties if the law goes through.

A push in the United States Congress to pass a bill condemning the 1915 Armenian massacre under the Ottoman Empire as a case of genocide is threatening to put yet another strain on ties between Turkey and the US, which are already strained.

Turkey has threatened to take dramatic steps against its NATO partner if the bill passes, including a curtailing of military cooperation between the two countries.

"The consequences of such a step would go beyond the imaginable and would have a lasting effect," the Turkish Foreign Ministry in Ankara warned last week. Mehmet Dulger, who chairs the Foreign Relations Committee in the Turkish parliament as a member of the ruling AKP party, warned that Turkey might even go so far as to restrict American access to Incirlik Air Base.

The base is of major strategic importance to the US, which uses it to supply its troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Ankara's refusal in 2003 to permit US troops to cross into northern Iraq through Turkey triggered the current tensions.

For its part, the Bush administration is seeking to stop Congress from pushing through the resolution. In a March 7 letter, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned leading members of Congress about the potential fallout the bill could have for US-Turkish relations. And on Wednesday, Rice cautioned that the US should not get involved in the dispute over the mass-killings, which resulted in the deaths of as many as 1.5 million Armenians.

In February, Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul and Yasar Buyukanit, chief of the general staff for the Turkish Armed Forces, began a political offensive against Washington, saying that Ankara considers the massacre to be a tragic act of violence that happened in the context of World War I but not genocide.

Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic Speaker of the House, made her view very clear: She didn't even receive Foreign Minister Gul.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,druck-472826,00.html


Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2007, 11:34:31 AM »
Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic Speaker of the House, made her view very clear: She didn't even receive Foreign Minister Gul.

<sarcasm>
Glad to see the adults are running Congress now.
</sarcasm>
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2007, 11:42:00 AM »
Good. It is about time.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2007, 01:49:22 PM »
Why do they care what we say about something that happened all those years ago if it were just something "tragic" that happened during war?   They seem to be looking for an excuse to sever ties. 
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2007, 01:51:41 PM »
They seem to be looking for an excuse to sever ties. 

And Pelosi seems willing to give them one. Adults don't snub visiting dignitaries from our allies.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2007, 04:02:12 PM »
I understand why many people call the 1915 Armenian massacre a genocide. What I don't understand is why the U.S. Congress has now before it a bill to officially declare the 1915 Armenian massacre a genocide. Why is this a matter for Congress? What does it matter? Or is the U.S. government going to piss on Turkey just because it can?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2007, 04:04:27 PM »
Or is the U.S. government going to piss on Turkey just because it can?

<sarcasm>
Well, you see, it's because the adults are running Congress now. They're only doing the important stuff.
</sarcasm>
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2007, 04:06:43 PM »
I understand why many people call the 1915 Armenian massacre a genocide. What I don't understand is why the U.S. Congress has now before it a bill to officially declare the 1915 Armenian massacre a genocide. Why is this a matter for Congress? What does it matter? Or is the U.S. government going to piss on Turkey just because it can?

Is Turkey a full member of the EU? Is this one of the requirements for them joining? And like you questioned, is this a matter for Congress or does it more properly belong under the jurisdiction of seasoned professionals at State.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2007, 04:19:32 PM »
Is Turkey a full member of the EU?

No.

Is this one of the requirements for them joining?

It was until that requirement was dropped last year. Apparently Turkey thought it was a bit unfair that recognition of historical events has never been required for other countries joining the EU in the past, but was required for their admittance.

And like you questioned, is this a matter for Congress or does it more properly belong under the jurisdiction of seasoned professionals at State.

Congress has the adults running the place now, haven't you heard?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2007, 04:25:39 PM »
Quote
Is Turkey a full member of the EU?

No. They aren't affiliated with the EU.

Quote
Is this one of the requirements for them joining?

Not officially any longer, but human rights is a strong requirement.

Quote
And like you questioned, is this a matter for Congress or does it more properly belong under the jurisdiction of seasoned professionals at State.

Congress has certainly made such determinations before. As a matter of fact many state legislatures have made this exact determination. Thirty-nine of fifty US states recognise the events as Genocide (including the states of Arkansas, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee). So it is certainly within the United States Congress' purview.

Interestingly much of the evidence was collected by the United States. Before we entered the Great War, we had numerous missions in the Ottoman Empire and they collected a great deal of evidence concerning the Armenian Genocide. There is even a famous letter (still on file) where a US official wrote to the Secretary of State and called the events: "a campaign of race extermination..."

Other reports came from Missionaries to the Middle East region who were eye witnesses of the terror. Morganthau, who authored the note mentioned above when on to say:

Quote
When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact....I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915.

So the United States plays a significant role in recognising this event and having Turkey finally admit to it. For us to officially recognise the massacres as a Genocide would be very significant. It would pressure other governments to do the same.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2007, 05:05:13 PM »
No. They [Turkey] aren't affiliated with the EU.

Turkey is an "Associate Member" of the EU, since 1964. See the "Ankera Agreement", signed in 1963.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2007, 05:06:55 PM »
So the dems are pushing this to the ferefront because it is the right thing to do? Why now? Why not under the Human Rights president, Jimmy Carter.


BTW have we officially apologized for slavery or how the Irish were treated when they came to these shores?

domer

  • Guest
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2007, 05:09:40 PM »
Certainly Congress has the power to issue historical findings and statements of principle concerning matters of international significance as part of its far-ranging function as our nation's voice (and conscience) of the people. The catch here is the delicate, even crucial, nature of present US-Turkish relations, and the long-range interests of Middle East stability and world peace swiveling partly on that fulcrum.

But the dilemma is false: there is no compulsion for a Congressional declaration. At the same time, however, indubitably such a declaration would advance the cause of truth, justice and humanity on the particular matter of the Armenian Genocide itself. But would the overall cause of those virtues and principles be advanced by creating tensions that, conceivably, could degenerate into further bloodshed, if not as horrendous? These latter effects are speculative, of course, but rationally conceived and must be accounted for in those terms.

As Congress contemplates forcing the Turks to come clean, one has to inquire of the Muslim, and specifically Turkish, religious or secular, mechanisms and folkways for dealing with issues of collective or national guilt. Do they exist? Do they mirror in any significant way the confession-repentance-redemption cycle familiar to many Christians and Westerners in general? In other words, are the Turks shirking their moral duties, as they define them, by diluting formal national responsibility for the genocide? Even more importantly, what benefit would be gained from from Turkey's donning the scarlet letter "G" for genocide, besides vindication for Armenian survivors?

At once, it becomes apparent that the implications of a US Congressional resolution on the matter of Armenian Genocide, despite a basis of authority, would put into play -- have ramifications implicating -- a vast series of matters more and more tangential to Congress's assumed core mission to promote sound foreign relations and endorse policies that will promote US interests, which should always be geared to dovetail with the long-range goal of a stable and peaceful world.

However, if such a declaration of responsibility -- indeed, was the analogue imposed on Germany and Japan or left to their recuperating sensibilities? -- is deemed, ultimately, to be a clear advance for the Zeitgeist, then perhaps Congress should couple such a pronouncement with an official US Mea Culpa (and provision for further reparations) for the descendants of slaves and America's decimated Indian population.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 05:16:48 PM by domer »

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2007, 05:13:15 PM »

Congress has certainly made such determinations before. As a matter of fact many state legislatures have made this exact determination. Thirty-nine of fifty US states recognise the events as Genocide (including the states of Arkansas, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee). So it is certainly within the United States Congress' purview.


Okay, but that doesn't explain why the U.S Congress is doing this. For that matter, why have state legislatures bothered with this issue? Besides giving politicians a reason to feel morally righteous, what does it accomplish?


So the United States plays a significant role in recognising this event and having Turkey finally admit to it. For us to officially recognise the massacres as a Genocide would be very significant. It would pressure other governments to do the same.


Okay. So? This all seems like the political equivalent of wearing a "F--k Bush" T-shirt in public. It makes the wearer/legislator feel like he is making a bold statement but accomplishes very little of actual use to anyone.

If Congress wants to waste time accomplishing nothing (and as a libertarian, I'm in favor of that), why don't they all just go home rather than spend more taxpayer dollars by staying in session?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Genocide Bill Divides US and Turkey
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2007, 08:20:58 PM »
Are there no examples of recent or
current
genocide?

Turkey is a key member of Nato and Turkish decisions are imortant to the whole of the middle east.

Could this be creating an international problem for the purpose of domestic political advantage?