Author Topic: Recession?  (Read 13198 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2008, 03:37:42 PM »
Watch out folks, there are lots of people who hate you because you can afford to get a hybrid car, or turn your thermostat down. They hate you because they can?t keep up, and they will take what they want by force if you let them.
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They hate our freedoms, like Juniorbush said.

Anyone that can afford a Hummer can also afford a Prius.

This happens all the time, a guy will be sitting home with his thremostat at 74 degrees F, and the next thing you know, Fascist leftists have broken down the door and are stealing all his heat.

Happens all the time.... in RR's inflamed mind!
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Rich

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2008, 03:43:08 PM »
>>We have old pumps here in TN too, but the oil quality is just no match for the Arabian or Russian oil.<<

I knew an old pump in Tennessee.

<rimshot>

We only get about 30 percent of our oil from Middleastern sources, the rest we get from our "friends." What we really need to do is forget what the lunatic left thinks and do what best for the country. We should begin the search for domestic sources of oil tomorrow and begin drilling in ANWAR the day after tomorrow. Then we begin building nuclear reactors and fire 'em up ASAP. Let's stop listening to these pinheads who keep us dependent on foreign oil and do the right thing. Then, once we've taken the Mideast out of the equation we can watch American ingenuity make alternative sources that work.

sirs

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2008, 03:44:56 PM »
Watch out folks, there are lots of people who hate you because you can afford to get a hybrid car, or turn your thermostat down. They hate you because they can?t keep up, and they will take what they want by force if you let them.
==============================================
They hate our freedoms, like Juniorbush said.  Anyone that can afford a Hummer can also afford a Prius.

And not so strangely it's the side who buys the Prious, who demands others drive what THEY deem appropriate.

and on a related note, perhaps Ami has access to this info, but I heard the logistics of putting together and/or transporting Prius parts, especially the battery, cost much more in both fuel (that dreaded oil based gasoline) and shipping logistics, than a Hummer's parts & battery.  In otherwords, to save the world, the Prius destroys it.  Oh, the irony     :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

The_Professor

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2008, 03:46:26 PM »
Yes, we need to invest immediately in nuclear fission and R&D into nuclear fusion. And an immediate government-sponsored effort in immediately deploying geothermal and wind power while it is feasible. Not ten years form now, but now. Want to see the technology immediately appear before your eye? Cut off half of all overseas oil and see how the "magic" appears before your eyes!
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Rich

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2008, 03:50:24 PM »
>>And an immediate government-sponsored effort in immediately deploying geothermal and wind power while it is feasible. Not ten years form now, but now.<<

Why government sponsored? Personally I don't trust the government to take care of my health, why would I trust them with my thermostat?  ;)

If there's money to be made, American comaponies will be there to make it.

yellow_crane

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2008, 04:11:37 PM »
>>And an immediate government-sponsored effort in immediately deploying geothermal and wind power while it is feasible. Not ten years form now, but now.<<

Why government sponsored? Personally I don't trust the government to take care of my health, why would I trust them with my thermostat?  ;)

If there's money to be made, American comaponies will be there to make it.


Your inadvertant misspelling of 'companies' as 'comaponies' is hilariously ironic in its adverse--'coma ponies' is an excellent description for those hoodwinked by the corporate Mandarins.


_JS

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2008, 04:50:07 PM »
Watch out folks, there are lots of people who hate you because you can afford to get a hybrid car, or turn your thermostat down. They hate you because they can?t keep up, and they will take what they want by force if you let them.
==============================================
They hate our freedoms, like Juniorbush said.  Anyone that can afford a Hummer can also afford a Prius.

And not so strangely it's the side who buys the Prious, who demands others drive what THEY deem appropriate.

and on a related note, perhaps Ami has access to this info, but I heard the logistics of putting together and/or transporting Prius parts, especially the battery, cost much more in both fuel (that dreaded oil based gasoline) and shipping logistics, than a Hummer's parts & battery.  In otherwords, to save the world, the Prius destroys it.  Oh, the irony     :D

Nearly all container ships run on diesel and not gasoline (as with their land based brethren, the 18-wheelers). I don't know much about the assembly of Toyota's Prius itself, but the container ship industry has come a long way, especially Maersk, a Danish (got to love the Danes) shipbuilder and one of the largest transportation companies worldwide.

The Emma Maersk uses diesel and through recycling and special paints is able to conserve fuel at amazing rates. Those paints are also an environmentally friendly way to keep barnacles off the vessel as opposed to the typical method of using biocides. Emma Maersk

But you know, what the hell would those Socialist Danes know about anything...right?  ::)
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sirs

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2008, 04:55:39 PM »
I wasn't referring to a generic "nearly all container ships" or "container ship industry", Js.  I was referring to what I heard in that the making and specific shipping of Prius parts, espcially the battery, was FAR more expensive and "fuel burning" than that of the Hummer.  And there in lies the irony I was referring to

But thanks for the general info on Danish shipping
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2008, 05:09:07 PM »
Nearly all container ships run on diesel and not gasoline (as with their land based brethren, the 18-wheelers).

And diesel is not made from petroleum?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2008, 05:42:54 PM »
Nearly all container ships run on diesel and not gasoline (as with their land based brethren, the 18-wheelers).

And diesel is not made from petroleum?

It is, but the person to which I was responding to said, and I quote: "cost much more in both fuel (that dreaded oil based gasoline)"

I'd like to see the evidence for this claim about the Toyota Prius. I'm curious.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2008, 05:53:48 PM »
I'd like to see the evidence for this claim about the Toyota Prius. I'm curious.

Well, here's one article:

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage, Says Editorial

Source: The Recorder
[Mar 14, 2007]

SYNOPSIS: The Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel which is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario, a plant that has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers.

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate "green car" is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius's EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn't be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the "dead zone" around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius' battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist's nightmare.

"The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside," said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn't end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce "nickel foam." From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven't even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius's arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust," the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.


So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=14582
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 05:58:28 PM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2008, 06:16:51 PM »
Nearly all container ships run on diesel and not gasoline (as with their land based brethren, the 18-wheelers).

And diesel is not made from petroleum?

It is, but the person to which I was responding to said, and I quote: "cost much more in both fuel (that dreaded oil based gasoline)"

Oil based petrol, better?  As if that makes much of a difference    ::)

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2008, 06:24:29 PM »
Nearly all container ships run on diesel and not gasoline (as with their land based brethren, the 18-wheelers). I don't know much about the assembly of Toyota's Prius itself, but the container ship industry has come a long way, especially Maersk, a Danish (got to love the Danes) shipbuilder and one of the largest transportation companies worldwide.

===================================================
Actually, I think most ships run on bunker oil, a heavier, thicker,  less refined and cheaper petroleum product then Diesel.

They can ship cookies from Denmark and sell them for a price competitive with American cookies, so I don;t think shipping is all that expensive.

NPR ran a story about this ship that is partially powered by a huge kite across the Atlantic, using 30% less fuel.
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_JS

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2008, 06:31:30 PM »
Seems to be a conflict. I found this in just a really quick google:

Prius Versus HUMMER: Exploding the Myth
Which one?s more green over a lifetime?
by Bengt Halvorson      (2007-04-16)  
Link


Over the past year, there has been an explosion of stories raising questions about the real environmental cost of hybrids.

One of the most misleading ones, which has been spread by countless blogs over the past several weeks, and cited without verification by several sources that appear reputable, looks to have originated in a story last November in England's Daily Mail, a right-leaning, British tabloid paper, which bore the gleefully spiteful title 'Toyota factory turns landscape to arid wilderness.' An editorial, published last month in a newspaper for a small state university on the East Coast, helped bring this misleading report a new life.

But it isn't a Toyota factory at all. The automaker has, in fact, only been purchasing significant amounts of nickel from the Sudbury , Ontario , Inco mine for its batteries in recent years, while the environmental disaster the headline is referring to largely occurred more than thirty years ago.

And that ore is at the core of a semi-urban legend that leads to dumb headlines like "HUMMER Greener than Prius," and others we've seen recently.

Toyota says that nickel has been mined from in Sudbury since the 1800s, and that "the large majority of the environmental damage from nickel mining in and around Sudbury was caused by mining practices that were abandoned decades ago." Out of the Inco mine's 174,800-ton output in 2004, Toyota purchased 1000 tons, just over a half-percent of its output. The plant's emissions of sulfur dioxide are down 90 percent from 1970 levels, and it's targeting a 97-percent reduction in those emissions by 2015, according to Toyota.

Of course, metal-hydride hybrid batteries aren't the only use for nickel. One widespread use of nickel is for the chrome (chromium-nickel) plating that's widely used in trim and wheels for luxury vehicles. And according to the Nickel Institute, which represents trade groups, manufacturers, and nickel producers, about two-thirds of all nickel mined goes toward stainless steel, which is of course widely used in vehicles - exhaust systems, for instance. Another significant portion goes toward engine alloys - pistons, rings, liners and the like; in general, the larger the engine, the more nickel it's likely to have.
 
Living in the limelight

On to the other, more significant source of these stories: About a year ago, CNW Marketing Research, Inc., of Bandon, Ore., a firm with a well-established reputation for industry forecasting, made claims last year that that hybrid vehicles used more energy in their lifetime, from creation to disposal, than many SUVs. The tagline of one of CNW's releases was, "Hybrids Consumer More Energy in Lifetime Than Chevrolet's Tahoe SUV."

With the full study released in December, called "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal," CNW claims to assess all stages of vehicle production, including research and development, raw material production and sourcing, production and assembly, sales, operation and maintenance, and disposal of the vehicle at the end of its life.

CNW argues that its study is not geared to be an assault on hybrids, but in interpreting its results CNW states that environmentalists' faith in hybrids as a more efficient means of transportation is misguided to a degree, as many larger vehicles with lower gas mileage actually use less energy from dust to dust. Several outlets have held on to the idea that a Prius does more damage to the environment than a HUMMER, with the CNW study as their sole source. But of course, that study aside, there's a fatal flaw in this reporting: environmental damage and energy are not at all synonymous.  

Lifecycle analysis is nothing new to the auto industry. It's been done internally for decades with cars and all manner of household appliances and electronics. What is new this decade is that a significant portion of shoppers are considering it, spurred by the recent movement toward environmental consumerism, and pop-culture books like 2002's Cradle to Cradle, by William McDonough and Michael Braungart, which focuses on the recycling of consumer goods.

CNW's research was done largely 'under the radar,' using publicly available data along with phone and mail research and on-site analysis of assembly plants. The research included demographics such as how far the vehicle was expected to go in its lifetime and over how many years the vehicle will remain with its initial buyer. Other factors included lifetime maintenance, mechanical repairs, and accident repairs; design and development costs; manufacturing (including energy in employee commuting); administrative support; transportation to retail; dealership operations; and the cost of recycling and disposing of parts and materials.

HUMMER has, for example, established a new national network of new, standalone Quonset hut, hangar-style dedicated dealership facilities over the past several years, and a completely new assembly plant was built for the assembly of the H2 SUV, which would bring their lifetime cost up significantly.

After all the numbers had been crunched, among vehicles sold in the U.S. in the 2005 calendar year, CNW found the least expensive vehicle to be the Scion xB at 48 cents per mile in overall energy costs. The most energy-expensive vehicle was the Maybach at $11.58 per mile in energy costs over its estimated lifetime. The VW Phaeton, Rolls-Royce line, and Bentley line followed closely behind. In all of these instances, these are overall energy costs incurred from inception through disposal, not energy costs associated only with vehicle ownership.

To compare, the Toyota Prius involves $3.25 per mile in energy costs over its lifetime, according to CNW, while several full-size SUVs scored lower. A Dodge Viper involves only $2.18 in energy per mile over its lifetime. The Range Rover Sport costs $2.42, and the Cadillac Escalade costs $2.75.

"If a consumer is concerned about fuel economy because of family budgets or depleting oil supplies, it is perfectly logical to consider buying high-fuel-economy vehicles, said Art Spinella, president of CNW, in a release. "But if the concern is the broader issues such as environmental impact of energy usage, some high-mileage vehicles actually cost society more than conventional or even larger models over their lifetime.

The junkyard brawl ensues

Some of the greater cost of hybrids, according to CNW, is due to the higher cost of recycling hybrids. On an energy basis, the firm says, vehicles cost an energy-equivalent average of $119,000 to recycle, while hybrids average $140,000. But CNW later says that it calculates the Prius's battery as costing $93 in energy to recycle.

Toyota says that credible scientific research has found that end-of-life recycling and disposal use disproportionately small amounts of energy. Although CNW does say that vehicle recycling accounts for about one-quarter of all the energy used in U.S. recycling, it also says that much of the extra energy cost of hybrids is due to their complexity, which requires more energy through many stages of its life, such as in sourcing materials and making repair.

"If Toyota can reduce the complexity of building hybrids to a simple 'plug and play' system whereby major hybrid electrics and electronics can be easily detached and disposed of for simplified replacement, the cost would drop dramatically. That is not the case with most hybrids today, however," CNW says.

Toyota has responded that CNW's study does not include any specific information on its methodology or data sources, and it does not at all agree with the bulk of scientific studies on vehicle lifecycle analysis, many of which conclude that about 85 percent of total lifetime energy use occurs in driving the vehicle. CNW's study shows these ratios approximately reversed.

In a prepared statement, the automaker says, "Toyota has been doing lifecycle assessment for many years to evaluate various advanced vehicle technology. We?believe that the best way to assess the environmental impact of a vehicle is to do a full evaluation of all the inputs and outputs in every stage of a vehicle life."  

Fueling the controversy

David Friedman, research director of the Clean Vehicles Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, thinks that CNW's results and apparent methodology bring red flags. "This study has been completely contradicted by studies from MIT, Argonne National Labs and Carnegie Mellon's Lifecycle Assessment Group. The reality is hybrids can significantly cut global warming pollution, reduce energy use, and save drivers thousands at the pump," commented Friedman.

CNW's figures, for example, show that the Civic Hybrid can cost nearly $165,000 more over its lifetime, "dust to dust," than the standard Civic, which is a difficult figure to swallow, even considering the extra development, materials, and disposal of the Hybrid variant. Honda's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system is a mild hybrid system and many engineers have admired its elegant and simple design and function, considering the efficiency gains.

The CNW study fuels further controversy by alleging that automakers - specifically mentioning Toyota - don't include the energy that goes into modules that are built by suppliers and then shipped to the assembly plant. But Toyota insists that its methods include all materials and components that go into the vehicle, not only those manufactured internally by the automaker.

Toyota concedes that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for its hybrids, but says that it is overwhelmingly made up by less energy used during its driving lifetime.

But Toyota also says that the study uses an unrealistically low estimated lifetime for hybrids, and that there's no data to support its assumptions in this. For instance, according to the study the average Prius is expected to go 109,000 miles over its lifetime, while a Hummer H1 would go 379,000 miles. CNW says about hybrids: "?these are generally secondary vehicles in a household OR they are driven in restricted or short range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods."

One other area of the study that some critics have found to be misleading is that CNW only included the so-called design and development cost of models sold so far, not on the potential volume of that technology in the long run.

In a section that seems to be leading to the dismissal of existing hybrids as having technology with a short shelf life, the study goes on to say that "?many of the hybrid models - such as the Insight and Prius - are early renditions of the technology that are being or soon will be replaced by more efficient and less complicated versions effectively making the current versions obsolete within a few short years."

In a similar manner, the methodology also looks to take into account how many vehicles have been produced by existing factories so far, not how many vehicles might be produced over the lifetime of the factories, so Toyota and other automakers who have recently established more efficient factories lose out, even though the facilities might be more efficient. The firm also includes the energy importance of where assembly plants are located, in factors such as how far, and how, its employees commute.

Grasping the 'social energy' of what you drive

2008 HUMMER H3 Alpha  |  CNW also includes overall "social energy expenditures," which it describes in very little detail except with a coffee analogy, alleging that while most peer-review papers only analyze the energy demands from the grinding of the coffee forward, the firm's report analyzes everything including the "coffee mug maker."

But if the mug could also just as well be used for tea or hot chocolate, do you still include that cost? As you dig farther up the supply chain, the answers seem to get fuzzier, and without figures or meaty methodology details from CNW it's unclear what kind of assumptions were made. The firm has not responded to our request for comment.

While its methodology may remain unclear, the report does include some useful and eye-opening information that few car shoppers had likely even thought about. Hopefully this controversy will spur shoppers to demand more information about the vehicles they drive other than emissions and mpg and consider the big-picture impact.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: Recession?
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2008, 08:21:05 PM »
>>And an immediate government-sponsored effort in immediately deploying geothermal and wind power while it is feasible. Not ten years form now, but now.<<

Why government sponsored? Personally I don't trust the government to take care of my health, why would I trust them with my thermostat?  ;)

If there's money to be made, American comaponies will be there to make it.

By "government-sponosred, I meant "government incentives".
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D