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BT

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2008, 06:35:56 PM »
2009

Plane

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2008, 06:37:41 PM »
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.

NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.


 ::)

Perhaps you can quote the portion of the law that requires teachers to teach to the test.


Bt,

Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.

That isn't practical for me , can't you just tell us why it is that NCLB forces teaching to the test and not mastery of the subject?

BT

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #122 on: July 03, 2008, 06:38:37 PM »
Quote
Bt,

Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.

Obama made the claim. You have made the claim. Perhaps you can educate us as to the portion of the bill that backs this claim. Can you do that?


Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #123 on: July 03, 2008, 07:00:48 PM »

 Bush did NOT say that the war would be swift? Ok---- INSTEAD !  He told the U.S. Military that because of their actions; ?The tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free? in 2003!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/01/sprj.irq.bush.speech/index.html

Standing on the giant flight deck, with a banner reading "Mission Accomplished" overhead on the bridge, the commander-in-chief saluted the men and women of the U.S. military.
"Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free," was his message. "America is grateful for a job well done."

"With new tactics and precision weapons, we can achieve military objectives without directing violence against civilians. No device of man can remove the tragedy from war. Yet it is a great advance when the guilty have far more to fear from war than the innocent."

"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September 11th, 2001, and still goes on."

Bush said that in the 19 months since the attacks on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania, "nearly half of al Qaeda's senior operatives have been captured or killed."

He also said removing Saddam from power would make other nations less vulnerable to terrorist attacks.

"We have removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because that regime is no more."


Victory and Geneva Conventions:
"Bush did not formally declare the war in Iraq to be over.
There are several reasons, highlighted by aides and scholars. For one, although major combat is over, skirmishes in Iraq continue as exemplified by deadly exchanges in the city of Fallujah between protesters and U.S. soldiers. Also, although Saddam Hussein's regime was toppled, the former Iraqi president and members of his inner circle, including his two sons, remain unaccounted for.
Scholars familiar with laws governing war say that a formal declaration of victory would complicate efforts by coalition forces to track down the former members of Saddam's regime.
"If we say the war is over, it makes it more difficult to pursue these individuals," said Anthony Clark Arend, professor of government and foreign service at Georgetown University. He has written a book on international law and the use of force.


Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #124 on: July 03, 2008, 07:06:35 PM »
Quote
Bt,

Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.

Obama made the claim. You have made the claim. Perhaps you can educate us as to the portion of the bill that backs this claim. Can you do that?



Can you prove to me that the our claim is NOT true?


Amianthus

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2008, 07:21:41 PM »
Can you prove to me that the our claim is NOT true?

There is nothing in the bill that mandates "teaching to the test".

I can't show it to you because it does not exist. You, however, claim that it does. Therefore, the burden of proof falls on you, since you made the positive claim.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #126 on: July 03, 2008, 07:37:58 PM »
Quote
Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.

NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.


 ::)

Perhaps you can quote the portion of the law that requires teachers to teach to the test.


Bt,

Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.

That isn't practical for me , can't you just tell us why it is that NCLB forces teaching to the test and not mastery of the subject?

The fact that teachers and students are overly tested. The fact that results of those scores equate to high stakes that can sometimes equate to loss of jobs, not to mention stressed out children and teachers, with no support to improve FOR THE SAKE OF THE NCLB act.... is yes, a direct  outcome of the NCLB bill. And yes, we have gone over this before. IT DOES NOT STATE THIS IN THE ACT ITSELF. But, something has to be changed. The outcomes are clearly crazy making and unfair. I can't wait to see how Obama makes such changes a reality. I don't know what he is going to do, yet. I will get that news when it comes and be back to report. ;)

If a particular school does not fare well on certain tests, then the entire school is punished, unfairly. It's one thing to assist in support children and help teachers keep up to date and current. It's clearly another to mandate that the outcome of said tests hit a particular point or else the system is punished. . .  Not meeting AYP,  being put on probation...R1 RESTRICTION 1 etc. My god, the punishment itself is enough to make any system cheat! That's not what we do, and I hope to God that schools are not doing that, but if the leadership in ps systems are under a gun, consequently pushing their teachers to the point of panic, I would venture to guess that some teachers will probabnly teach to the test in order to keep from all of the stresses involved. Texas schools even went a step further and CHEATED in order to make the NCBL act work...FOR THEIR BUSH!

Of course, we don't teach the test, but we are restricted to teach exactly what is on the test. Period. Thus our kids are not receiving a decent well rounded education. We are forced to teach through scripted programs, etc.
Reading first schools, especially.

Previous to this NCLB law, (under Reagan's A Nation at Risk era) we were successful in providing children with a well rounded education. All subjects were taught. Now, only the three basic elements RRWR Come on! Would you like to send your child to a school that does not teach art, music, science and social studies?

If we teach all of those subjects, we lose time to teach the areas that are tested in order to BRING UP TEST SCORES....which is IN ORDER TO SATISFY the NCLB act, ultimately. Testing is nothing new. Accountability is nothing new.  In fact, tests and assessments  continue to "drive our instruction", if you will.

 There were no punitive actions attached in those days, however.
Ok, sure,  there are no punitive mandates stated in the NCLB, but it is implied that systems had better find a way to DO WHATEVER it takes to improve failing schools but at what cost?


Currently, all schools are judged according to the test scores, and yet there is little support for families who live in low economic areas. There is little support for the schools themselves. Instead there are pressures that do no one any good.

 In the wealthier areas of our school district, for example,children fare better on tests, and are rewared accordingly. Not so for all children. Yet they are given the same criteria with no promises of more funding. IT takes money to teach.  

The argument I stand for is change in the system. IF obama can find a way to make crucial changes within the act itself, to reduce the unnecessary stresses that are riping this educational system apart, good for him.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 07:42:44 PM by Cynthia »

sirs

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #127 on: July 03, 2008, 07:40:56 PM »
Bush, at least TRIED to compromise with Democrats, and often did on some of their pet issues.....EDUCATION for instance.  Obama has no such record to hang his nonexistant leadership hat on  And News Flash Cynthia, Bush isn't running this election, and McCain is not Bush.

I never said Bush was running anything.

Yet you comparing Obama to Bush, as if that's who Obama is running against


He's going to have to look back and come to grips with what he has done to many in this world during his two terms in office.

Democracy now taking root in Iraq, its dictator removed, increased revenues into the Fed, increased credibility in American Foreign Policy, tax relief to everyone who payed income taxes.  I don't think he's gonna lose alot of sleep over it personally Cynthia, though I'm sure he's kicking himself for believing nearly every single intelligence's conclusions of Saddam's WMD disposition.  I'm sure he also is kicking himself and his military staff for not having better contingency plans, immediately ready to impliment.  He's probably also kicking himself for not pushing his party when they were in the majority, to get pass new energy policies, that would have short circuited what's happening to the prioce of gas currently.  But all in all, not bad.  Not good, but not bad, when taken in its totality.


Obama is a wonderful man.

I don't doubt that.  Hard core liberal perhaps, but probably a nice guy.  That is however NOT a requirement for being President of the U.S.


I have more faith in him than in Bush, anyday. He will at least listen to others. Bush wasn't about to do squat for people unless it was fed by the conservative stream of thought.

Ok, now you're just getting ridiculus.  A) anyone can listen,  B) Bush did try to and DID push actions very much AGAINST conservative "stream of thought",  C) Obama has done SQUAT in that regards.


I welcome someone who is far left, after all is said and done. I can't wait.

Not in my country.  This isn't going to be a Socialist state, and it's one of the chief reasons why you'll never see (as Tee was decrying) the Dems growing any &@%%# because if they ever ran on a Far Left Ideoligical platform, they'd never see the light of day, from the electorate. 
 

Bush TRIED? Oh yea, sure just like he TRIED to make the American people understand that the war in Iraq wasn't going to last very long.

He tried, and did convince those who weren't already either close minded or infected with BDS.  I knew it was going to take a long time.  You need to refresh those DNC talking points, Cynthia
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2008, 07:42:36 PM »
Quote
Bt,

Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!

Obama made the claim. You have made the claim. Perhaps you can educate us as to the portion of the bill that backs this claim. Can you do that?

Can you prove to me that the our claim is NOT true?

Prove a negative??  And you're a teacher?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2008, 07:46:04 PM »
Prove to me then that the system if not broken.


Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #130 on: July 03, 2008, 07:47:53 PM »
Bush, at least TRIED to compromise with Democrats, and often did on some of their pet issues.....EDUCATION for instance.  Obama has no such record to hang his nonexistant leadership hat on  And News Flash Cynthia, Bush isn't running this election, and McCain is not Bush.

I never said Bush was running anything.

Yet you comparing Obama to Bush, as if that's who Obama is running against


He's going to have to look back and come to grips with what he has done to many in this world during his two terms in office.

Democracy now taking root in Iraq, its dictator removed, increased revenues into the Fed, increased credibility in American Foreign Policy, tax relief to everyone who payed income taxes.  I don't think he's gonna lose alot of sleep over it personally Cynthia, though I'm sure he's kicking himself for believing nearly every single intelligence's conclusions of Saddam's WMD disposition.  I'm sure he also is kicking himself and his military staff for not having better contingency plans, immediately ready to impliment.  He's probably also kicking himself for not pushing his party when they were in the majority, to get pass new energy policies, that would have short circuited what's happening to the prioce of gas currently.  But all in all, not bad.  Not good, but not bad, when taken in its totality.


Obama is a wonderful man.

I don't doubt that.  Hard core liberal perhaps, but probably a nice guy.  That is however NOT a requirement for being President of the U.S.


I have more faith in him than in Bush, anyday. He will at least listen to others. Bush wasn't about to do squat for people unless it was fed by the conservative stream of thought.

Ok, now you're just getting ridiculus.  A) anyone can listen,  B) Bush did try to and DID push actions very much AGAINST conservative "stream of thought",  C) Obama has done SQUAT in that regards.


I welcome someone who is far left, after all is said and done. I can't wait.

Not in my country.  This isn't going to be a Socialist state, and it's one of the chief reasons why you'll never see (as Tee was decrying) the Dems growing any &@%%# because if they ever ran on a Far Left Ideoligical platform, they'd never see the light of day, from the electorate. 
 

Bush TRIED? Oh yea, sure just like he TRIED to make the American people understand that the war in Iraq wasn't going to last very long.

He tried, and did convince those who weren't already either close minded or infected with BDS.  I knew it was going to take a long time.  You need to refresh those DNC talking points, Cynthia


You appear to have a real disdain for liberals, Sirs.



Why?


That is however NOT a requirement for being President of the U.S.

Bush was a nice guy. Look what he has done for the world.

What will it take for you to see that Bush was not even a good president, let alone a great one?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 07:52:03 PM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #131 on: July 03, 2008, 07:50:14 PM »
He has a clear understanding of what is broken.

How does someone with "a clear understanding of what is broken" call a funded program "unfunded"? Sounds like he doesn't understand it to me.

The system is underfunded, Ami.

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #132 on: July 03, 2008, 07:53:57 PM »
You would make a terrible politician.

ROFL

When do you come up re-election, BT?

Well, we better look out then in 2009! ;D

sirs

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #133 on: July 03, 2008, 07:55:49 PM »
You appear to have a real disdain for liberals, Sirs.  Why?

Because your premise is flawed.  My disdain is for Liberalism.....NOT Liberals


Bush was a nice guy. Look what he has done for the world.  What will it take for you to see that Bush was not even a good president, let alone a great one?

I suppose I can flip that 180.....What will it take for you to see that Bush was a good president??  Hmmmmmmmmm?  And no one I'm aware of is claiming he's "great".
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2008, 07:57:38 PM »
Prove to me then that the system if not broken.

Again, you're the one making the positive claim, you need to provide the proof.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)