Author Topic: Paul & Foreign Policy  (Read 1213 times)

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sirs

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Paul & Foreign Policy
« on: January 17, 2008, 03:23:52 AM »
Ron Paul and Foreign Policy
January 15, 2008
Ron Paul invited the audience at last Thursday's Republican debate to entertain the notion that the Middle East would be a better place with the U.S. out of the picture.

"It's time that we come to the point where we believe the world can solve some of their problems without us," said the Texas congressman, who has raised a mountain of cash on the strength of such views. As President Bush completes his swing through the region, it's a thought worth considering.

Dr. Paul is a libertarian, and a libertarian's core belief is that a person's pursuit of happiness is, or ought to be, his own affair. Up to a point, most of us are probably sympathetic to that argument. But is it true of all people? And is what's true of some or all people also true of countries? The libertarian conceit -- which now extends well beyond Dr. Paul's cult-like following -- is that it is.

Thus, speaking of America's relationship with Israel, Dr. Paul insisted at Thursday's debate that "we need to recognize they deserve their sovereignty, just as we deserve our sovereignty." Of the feuds within the Arab world, he offered that "none of the Arab nations wanted Saddam Hussein in Kuwait and I think they could have taken care of Saddam Hussein back then and saved all the mess we have now."

Of Israel's relationship with its neighbors, he argued that if only America got out of the way by cutting off the aid spigot (which, he claimed, favored the Arabs by a 3-to-1 ratio), there would "be a greater incentive for Israel and the Palestinians and all the Arab nations to come together and talk." And of America's relationship with the Arab world, the congressman said in a previous debate that "they attack us because we've been over there."

Dr. Paul's own remedy is that if "we trade with everybody and talk with them . . . there's a greater incentive to work these problems out." But here's a rub.

As historian Michael Oren observes in "Power, Faith and Fantasy," his history of America's 230-year involvement in the Middle East, as early as the 1790s "many Americans had grown dismayed with the country's Middle East policy of admonishing the [Barbary] pirates while simultaneously coddling them with bribes." It was precisely out of a desire to "trade with everybody" that the early American republic was forced to build a navy, and then to go to war, to defend its commercial interests, a pattern that held true in World War I and the Persian Gulf "Tanker War" of the 1980s.

These details of history pose a problem not just to Dr. Paul's views of the Middle East, but to the intellectual architecture of libertarianism itself. Liberal societies are built on the belief in (and defense of) individual rights, but also on the overawing power of government to transform natural rights into civil ones. In the same way, trade between nations is only possible in the absence of robbers, pirates and other rogues. Whose job is it to get rid of them?

A strict libertarian might offer that mercenaries could be authorized to build aircraft carriers, Aegis cruisers and nuclear submarines to keep the freedom of the seas in the Straits of Hormuz and Malacca. But what happens when the pecuniary interests of mercenaries collide with the political interests of the U.S. or some other government? Ultimately, some kind of decisive power is needed there too, at least if the trading opportunities libertarians claim are so precious stand any chance of flourishing.

That isn't to say that Dr. Paul's specific arguments against American entanglement in the Middle East are purely spurious. Does U.S. diplomacy invariably facilitate peaceful outcomes in the region? The seven feckless years of the Oslo process suggest not. Does it make sense to arm Saudi Arabia and Egypt at the same time we arm Israel? The verdict will depend on what kind of governments the two Arab states have in, say, 10 years time. Should the Bush administration have backed Pervez Musharraf to the hilt these past seven years? Had it done more to cultivate democratic alternatives to the Pakistan strongman in years past, it might not have seen its Plan B vanish with Benazir Bhutto's assassination last month.

These questions turn on differences of tactics and strategy, whereas Dr. Paul's objection is philosophical. It helps his case rhetorically that he can tally the costs of America's involvement in the region -- the billions spent and thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan; the "blowback," as he puts it, from supporting Saddam at one moment and opposing him the next -- whereas hypotheticals are, by their very nature, costless. But that's only true while they remain hypothetical.

Nobody can say what, precisely, the cost would be of U.S. withdrawal from the Middle East or, for that matter, disengagement from rest of the world. But John McCain was on to something when he quipped, in reply to Dr. Paul, that the only items al Qaeda likes to trade in are burqas, and that they only fly on one-way tickets.

Mankind is not comprised solely of profit- and pleasure-seekers; the quest for prestige and dominance and an instinct for nihilism are also inscribed in human nature, nowhere more so than in the Middle East. Libertarianism makes no accounting for this. It assumes the relatively tame aspirations of modern American life are a baseline for human nature, not an achievement of civilization.

There is a not-incidental connection here between libertarianism and pacifism. George Orwell once observed that pacifism is a doctrine that can only be preached behind the protective cover of the Royal Navy. Similarly, libertarianism can only be seriously espoused under the protective cover of Leviathan.

That's something worth considering as Americans spend the coming year debating the course of things to come in the Middle East. It is beguiling, and parochially American, to believe that things go better when left alone. In truth, as Yeats once wrote, things fall apart. With so much at stake in this election, it's no small blessing that Dr. Paul remains a man of the fringe.


Article
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 07:08:26 PM »
The technique is interesting.

Dr. Paul has some fairly simple concepts for the electorate to consider.  One being that the U.S. has no business supporting Israel, Egypt or any other Middle East country.  Another being that U.S. support of Israel causes a whole lotta serious problems for the U.S., such as a billion or so Muslims hating their fucking guts.

Those are concepts that oughtta be fairly easy to consider or debate.  Does the U.S. have any legitimate business supporting Israel, etc., and if so, what are they?  Does U.S. support of Israel create Muslim and Arab hatred of the U.S. and if so, how much?

I have my own explanation for why the Wall Street Journal isn't anxious to discuss Dr. Paul's arguments on their own terms.

What we get from this particular Wall Street Journal editorial is a bunch of supposedly learned dissertations on: libertarianism; free trade; the Barbary Pirates of the 1790s (huh?); WWI; the Persian Gulf Tanker War (which was . . . ?); individual rights; natural rights; civil rights; how piracy affects international trade (the answer seems to be: negatively, very negatively); whether mercenaries should have aircraft carriers (no) in the Persian Gulf (double no); and John McCain's astute assessment of the possible benefits of trade with the Taliban (there aren't any.)

To a magician, the tactic of course is well-known: distraction.  Dr. Paul has some original and important ideas, some issues, which no other candidate, dependent as they are on Zionist campaign funding, wants to talk about; well, shit man, distract him and his supporters, get it?   Distract anyone who's even thinking about discussing Dr. Paul's issues.  Hit 'em with a ton of nonsensical red herrings and for Gawd's sake, get them off the trail.  Whatever else you do, DON'T get them talking about the same things that Ron Paul's talking about.  And hence you have these editorials spinning out of control into the wild blue yonder on everything in the world except Dr. Paul's rather simple and direct questions.

Eye on the ball, folks.  Keep your eye on the ball.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 07:15:59 PM by Michael Tee »

Plane

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 10:05:38 PM »
 
Quote
"...the Barbary Pirates of the 1790s (huh?); ..."


You don't consider the Barbary pirates pertanant?

Michael Tee

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 10:45:15 AM »

<<You don't consider the Barbary pirates pertanant?>>

Of course not.  They were a purely criminal element, acting for no goals other than that of amassing a huge pile of loot for their own personal benefit at the expense of every trading nation.  They had no support from any civilized nation on earth other than what they could buy from the rulers of their home ports.

Of course, it behooves todays GWOT Crusaders to try to compare "terrorists" with the Barbary Pirates.  Anyone who falls for such drivel will of course support any measures that can be billed as "anti-terrorist."

"Terrorists" do not fight to acquire monetary gain - - they expect to die soon.  They fight in a political or religious cause: liberation of the Palestinians, liberation of the Iraqis, driving the infidels out of Afghanistan (kind of absurd to use a word like "liberation" in reference to a Taliban government) and liberation of Iraq. 

They don't menace all nations equally, they concentrate their attacks on the biggest oppressors.

Terrorists fight because it is the only recourse that the oppressed of the world have against their oppressors.  To fight "terrorism," Amerikkka must pretend that it is the innocent victim.  Such a claim is so laughable on its face that nobody except the Amerikkkans themselves (and far from all of them) can believe it.  Hence the need to compare the "terrorists" with a group of similar ethnic and geographic origin, a group with no possible justification for its activities and therefore no need to compromise with it.

If Amerikkka once admitted that its "terrorist" enemies in fact were fighting for legitimate causes and that Amerikkka itself was creating some of the grievances against which the "terrorists" were fighting, it would have to abandon its "Barbary Pirates" fiction and get down to the business of negotiating with them and compromising with them, in the process admitting all the wrongs Amerikkka had committed and abandoning its own evil ways.  This is something that the Amerikkkan leadership is just not prepared to do.  So instead it clings to its "Barbary Pirates" paradigm.

Universe Prince

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 01:23:22 PM »
Quote from: Bret Stephens

Liberal societies are built on the belief in (and defense of) individual rights, but also on the overawing power of government to transform natural rights into civil ones. In the same way, trade between nations is only possible in the absence of robbers, pirates and other rogues. Whose job is it to get rid of them?


Only possible in the absence of robbers, pirates and other rogues? Only? Wow. How in the world have nations traded through the centuries then? It's a miracle I guess. How else to explain the trade that went on while robbers and pirates and other rogues existed? I sure am glad we don't those around any more.

Quote from: Bret Stephens

Whose job is it to get rid of them?

A strict libertarian might offer that mercenaries could be authorized to build aircraft carriers, Aegis cruisers and nuclear submarines to keep the freedom of the seas in the Straits of Hormuz and Malacca.


Indeed a strict libertarian might offer such. Then again, another strict libertarian might offer that protection of property is a legitimate function of government. Watching people talk as if all libertarians expect mercenaries handle everything gets a little annoying at times. Not all libertarians are anarchists who seek the immediate end of government. And of course, that Mr. Stephens is trying to use an anarchist style argument as a critque of Ron Paul, who is running for President with a campaign of upholding the Constitution, a document that includes provision for a navy, well, that doesn't really speak well for Mr. Stephen's critique.

Quote from: Bret Stephens

Nobody can say what, precisely, the cost would be of U.S. withdrawal from the Middle East or, for that matter, disengagement from rest of the world. But John McCain was on to something when he quipped, in reply to Dr. Paul, that the only items al Qaeda likes to trade in are burqas, and that they only fly on one-way tickets.


No one can say precisely the benefit from U.S. withdrawal of troops from the Middle East. That doesn't mean there would not be any. And no, John McCain was not onto something with his "I'm not interested in trading with Al-Qaeda" quip, because no one is suggesting we should be trading with Al-Qaeda. But McCain's equating trading with people in the Middle East with trading with Al-Qaeda says something important, and unflattering, about his understanding of and thoughts regarding the situation and the region.

Quote from: Bret Stephens

Libertarianism [...] assumes the relatively tame aspirations of modern American life are a baseline for human nature, not an achievement of civilization.


Um, no. What libertarianism does is recognize that authoritarian efforts are not the mark of civilization, and what makes civilization function best is liberty.

Quote from: Bret Stephens

There is a not-incidental connection here between libertarianism and pacifism. George Orwell once observed that pacifism is a doctrine that can only be preached behind the protective cover of the Royal Navy. Similarly, libertarianism can only be seriously espoused under the protective cover of Leviathan.


Excrement. Let's be clear here. Libertarianism does have non-aggression as a basic concept. And while there are pacifist libertarians, most libertarians recognize the right of the individual to self-defense. Ron Paul has not suggested that we disband the military. He suggested we stop pushing other countries around and treat them with the same respect we expect other countries to show us. I'm not sure why this is such a bizarre idea to people like Mr. Stephens. I'm also not sure why he thinks "libertarianism can only be seriously espoused under the protective cover of Leviathan." This kind like saying one can only believe in freedom under the "protection" of slavery.

Quote from: Bret Stephens

It is beguiling, and parochially American, to believe that things go better when left alone. In truth, as Yeats once wrote, things fall apart.


Um, no. Mr. Stephens is seriously over-simplifying here. He has fallen for the false dichotomy of the way things are or nothing, of top-down order forcibly imposed or destructive chaos. That sort of back-and-white depiction may be how Mr. Stephens thinks about politics and/or libertarianism, but his comments should then not be considered to reflect reality at all.

Quote from: Bret Stephens

With so much at stake in this election, it's no small blessing that Dr. Paul remains a man of the fringe.


No, not really. Actually, with so much at stake in this election, it is shame and a bane that Mr. Stephens's half-formed thinking seems to be the mainstream status quo.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 04:39:08 PM »

<<You don't consider the Barbary pirates pertanant?>>

Of course not.  They were a purely criminal element, ...



No they were sponsored by their legitimate government , if they were in action presently we would call them government sponsored terrorists. The conflict ended in a treaty.
They were pious Muslims and would have killed you for calling them a criminal element.
Al Quieda has no greater legitimacy than they did.



Quote
Terrorists fight because it is the only recourse that the oppressed of the world have against their oppressors...

That is a good reason to never allow them any success , even if it costs us a lot to quash their efforts it is worthwile to prevent terrorism from being a viable recourse.
Better Recourse is possible , I hope, else blowing up randomly chosen people has to seem like a reasonable thing to do.



Michael Tee

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 04:58:07 PM »
<<No they were sponsored by their legitimate government . . . >>

So what?  The privateers were sponsored by the legitimate government of England.  Who says that governments can't sponsor criminals?  The criminals are still criminals and so are the governments who sponsor them.

Plane

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 05:14:13 PM »
<<No they were sponsored by their legitimate government . . . >>

So what?  The privateers were sponsored by the legitimate government of England.  Who says that governments can't sponsor criminals?  The criminals are still criminals and so are the governments who sponsor them.

Terrorists are also criminals.

http://www.piratesinfo.com/fact/pirates/SirFrancisDrake.htm


If the Spanish had captured Drake or Morgan they would have gotten the treatment Osama Bin Laden deserves.

Michael Tee

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Re: Paul & Foreign Policy
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 05:32:35 PM »
<<Terrorists are also criminals.>>

Depending on the side they're on.   One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.  The U.S. both sponsors and protects terrorists as long as they terrorize the enemies of Amerikkka.  Orlando Bosch, Posada Carriles, the Mujaheddin al Khalq are just a few of the many U.S. sponsored terrorist groups.  In the 1970s the U.S. sponsored, protected and covered for many Latin American death squads, particularly in El Salvador and Guatemala.

It is very hard to take seriously any Amerikkkan complaints against "terrorists" who are basically just folks not very different from other folks serving Amerikkkan interests everywhere.  I think the sooner the U.S. stops brutalizing and aggressing against the Third World, the sooner the Third World will stop sending "terrorists" to attack Amerikkka.  "Terrorists" at least dramatize the problem for Amerikkka, which until "terror" became a "problem" was able to get away with its aggressions with impunity.