Author Topic: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah  (Read 17671 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2008, 01:29:41 PM »

This is like watching an enemy build a gallows , letting him rope your neck and tie your hands but not wanting to do anything about it because you arn't standing on the trapdoor yet.


No, it isn't. It's more like arguing that your neighbor is going to purchase a firearm and because you don't like your neighbor, your neighbor should be attacked and punished and prevented from owning a firearm because of what he might do in the future. Your reasons for that might or might not be sound, but to expect everyone to believe what you suspect the neighbor might do in the future as a foregone conclusion of exactly what will happen is not reasonable. The desire to prevent the neighbor from buying a firearm is even more unreasonable if you have a number of firearms yourself that you insist might be used at any time against your neighbor to make him comply with your wishes.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 01:46:02 PM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2008, 01:30:18 PM »
I do not like the idea of waiting for Iran to build a bomb and then waiting for them to use it on us and permitting no action against this idea untill it is so immanent that it is past. This is like watching an enemy build a gallows , letting him rope your neck and tie your hands but not wanting to do anything about it because you arn't standing on the trapdoor yet.

Exactly Plane.




"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2008, 01:43:36 PM »
uh fatman you can forget the $9 gas



Gas May Soon Cost a Sawbuck
Big New Shock at the Pump Forecast by Two Analysts


By DAN DORFMAN, Special to the Sun | April 28, 2008

Get ready for another economic shock of major proportions ? a virtual doubling of prices at the
gas pump to as much as $10 a gallon.

A customer pumps gas in Los Angeles, where self-serve regular gasoline exceeds 4 dollars a gallon.That?s the message from a couple of analytical energy industry trackers, both of whom, based on the surging oil prices, see considerably more pain at the pump than most drivers realize.

Gasoline nationally is in an accelerated upswing, having jumped to $3.58 a gallon from $3.50 in just the past week. In some parts of the country, including New York City and the West Coast, gas is already sporting a price tag above $4 a gallon. There was a pray-in at a Chevron station in San Francisco on Friday led by a minister asking God for cheaper gas, and an Arco gas station in San Mateo, Calif., has already raised its price to a sky-high $4.62.

In Manhattan, at a Mobil gas station at York Avenue and East 61st Street, premium gas is now $4.03 a gallon. Two days ago, it was $3.96. Why such a high price? ?Blame the people at STOPEC (he meant OPEC) and the oil companies,? an attendant there told me.

These increases are taking place before the all-important summer driving season, signaling even higher prices ahead.

That?s also the outlook of the Automobile Association of America. ?As long as the price of crude oil stays above $100 a barrel, drivers will be forced to pay more and more at the gas pump,? a AAA spokesman, Troy Green, said.

Oil recently hit an all-time high of nearly $120 a barrel, more than double its early 2007 price of about $50 a barrel. It closed Friday at $118.52.

The forecasts calling for a jump to between $7 and $10 a gallon are based on the view that the price of crude is on its way to $200 in two to three years.

Translating this price into dollars and cents at the gas pump, one of our forecasters, the chairman of Houston-based Dune Energy, Alan Gaines, sees gas rising to $7?$8 a gallon. The other, a commodities tracker at Weiss Research in Jupiter, Fla., Sean Brodrick, projects a range of $8 to $10 a gallon.

While $7?$10 a gallon would be ground-breaking in America, these prices would not be trendsetting internationally. For example, European drivers are already shelling out $9 a gallon (which includes a $2-a-gallon tax).

Canadians are also being hit with rising gas prices. They are paying the American-dollar equivalent of $4.92 a gallon, and they?re being told to brace themselves for prices above $5.65 a gallon this summer.

Early last year, with a barrel of oil trading in the low $50s and gasoline nationally selling in a range of $2.30 to $2.50 a gallon, Mr. Gaines ? in an impressive display of crystal ball gazing ? accurately predicted oil was $100-bound and that gasoline would follow suit by reaching $4 a gallon.

His latest prediction of $200 oil is open to question, since it would undoubtedly create considerable global economic distress. Further, just about every energy expert I talk to cautions me to expect a sizable pullback in oil prices, maybe to between $50 and $70 a barrel, especially if there?s a global economic slowdown.

While Mr. Gaines thinks there could be a temporary decline in the oil price, he?s convinced an overall uptrend is unstoppable. In fact, he thinks his $200 forecast could be conservative, and that perhaps $250 could be reached. His reasoning: a combination of shrinking supply and increasing demand, especially from China, India, and America.

Mr. Brodrick?s $200 oil forecast is largely predicated on a combination of pretty flat supply and rip-roaring demand. Other key catalysts include surging demand in China and India, where auto sales are booming, and major supply disruptions in Nigeria and also in Mexico, our second-largest source of oil imports, where oil production has fallen off a cliff.

More factors include the ever-present danger of additional supply disruptions from volatile countries in the Middle East that are not our allies, and the unwillingness of SUV-loving Americans to trim their unquenchable thirst for foreign oil. Likewise, for the first time, emerging markets this year will use more oil than America.

To Mr. Brodrick, it all adds up to an ongoing energy bull market. His favorite plays are the Energy Select Sector SPDR Fund ; United States Natural Gas Fund LP; Apache Corp.; Occidental Petroleum; Anadarko Petroleum, and Schlumberger.

http://www.nysun.com/news/business/gas-price-may-soon-cost-sawbuck

« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 12:02:12 AM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2008, 06:24:44 PM »
Think about what you are saying. The USSR and the PRC both had real nuclear weapons, pointed at the US for dozens of years. There were 300,000,000 Soviets and three times as many Chinese, and it turns out that a preemptive strike in the 1940's or 1950's against them would have been a really BAD idea.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Why?


Wouldn't this have had the potential of saveing us decades of Cold war , and several hot wars?

We didn't know at the time how poorly the USSR was set up to fight , their impressive showing against the Natzi invaders probly impressed us too much .

A few Atomic Bombs might have been very effective in the early Fiftys before they had an effective delivery , we just didn't know it.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2008, 06:50:05 PM »
wow
actually i dont think i agree with that plane
the soviets were for the most part rational people
the odds of them launching nukes or giving nukes to someone to hit us was not high
i dont really think we should have pre-emptively struck the USSR with nukes
but to me the radical Islamic world is very, very, very different type of threat than the Soviets were


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2008, 06:54:33 PM »
but to me the radical Islamic world is very, very, very different type of threat than the Soviets were


============================
They are much, much MUCH weaker, and less competent, and  who the Hell is the 'radical Islamic World"? Iran?  Saudi Arabia? Do you even know? You should know that Iran and the radical Muslims disagree on everything except Israel.

It is always best to avoid war. There has never been a good war or a bad peace.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2008, 09:58:13 PM »
"They are much, much MUCH weaker, and less competent"

Yes and no.
Obviously as a traditional military yes Iran/Islamics are much weaker.
But with the Soviets if they attacked they knew we would target their cities
However with radical Islam they want the ability to set off nuclear devices/germ warfare/ect in our cities
and we wouldn't know who and where to strike back at
that is a very scary thing
and a very powerful weapon and not at all "MUCH weaker"
they want to destroy the United States
It's their well stated and often stated goal
"Death To America" isn't really ambiguous
"Wiping Israel off the map" isn't really ambiguous
They hate the United States, they hate the Western World, they hate democracy, they hate freedom, they hate infidels
they hated infidels before George Bush and they will hate infidels after George Bush, you'll see, I assure you
so if within a decade 15 dirty nukes are set off in American cities
cities left uninhabitable, trillions in costs
who do we strike back at?
i think a stealth enemy can be more scary
and XO i do worry about these issues whether you, Fatman, and others don't

"It is always best to avoid war. There has never been a good war or a bad peace"

Agreed XO, like Sherman said on June 19, 1879, "War is hell" and he added "There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell."

Sherman also uttered words that with a few minor changes represent almost my exact feelings towards the IslamoNazis:

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war.[...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."



"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2008, 10:02:00 PM »
wow
actually i dont think i agree with that plane
the soviets were for the most part rational people
the odds of them launching nukes or giving nukes to someone to hit us was not high
i dont really think we should have pre-emptively struck the USSR with nukes
but to me the radical Islamic world is very, very, very different type of threat than the Soviets were




I could be wrong I suppose , but untill 1968 or so the Sovies didn't have a realistic means of delivering more than a few bombs, we fell for a lot of bluff most of that time and allowed half of Europe to be swallowed into mysery.

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2008, 10:04:19 PM »

This is like watching an enemy build a gallows , letting him rope your neck and tie your hands but not wanting to do anything about it because you arn't standing on the trapdoor yet.


No, it isn't. It's more like arguing that your neighbor is going to purchase a firearm and because you don't like your neighbor, your neighbor should be attacked and punished and prevented from owning a firearm because of what he might do in the future. Your reasons for that might or might not be sound, but to expect everyone to believe what you suspect the neighbor might do in the future as a foregone conclusion of exactly what will happen is not reasonable. The desire to prevent the neighbor from buying a firearm is even more unreasonable if you have a number of firearms yourself that you insist might be used at any time against your neighbor to make him comply with your wishes.


You have a Neighbor that gathers his family and freinds for twenty minutes every day to chant death to you?

The firearm vs gallows diffrence in metaphore , which is closer to an a-bomb snuck into the back yard?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2008, 11:23:19 PM »
and allowed half of Europe to be swallowed into mysery.

==========================================
The Soviets, who bore the majority of suffering in the war against the Nazis, saved countless lives by invading the Eastern European nations rather than forcing the Allies to do this. The US did not "allow half of Europe to be swallowed in misery". What happened was the US took as much of Europe as it could handle under the Marshall Plan, and the Western nations were far more advanced in education and development, richer in resources, and less damaged by the war than the Eastern ones. The US did not have the resources to drive the Soviets out or even to develop the Eastern nations if the Soviets had voluntarily withdrawn, wich they surely would not have done. Churchill was as intent on the destruction of Communism as Hitler. The British people, of course were not, and threw him out as soon as the war was over and he became annoying to the average working stiff.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Universe Prince

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2008, 11:25:30 PM »

You have a Neighbor that gathers his family and freinds for twenty minutes every day to chant death to you?


No, but I might if constantly meddled in my neighbor's affairs and bombed his backyard.


The firearm vs gallows diffrence in metaphore , which is closer to an a-bomb snuck into the back yard?


Given that we already have plenty of nuclear bombs with which we could probably make the Middle East unlivable many times over, I'm gonna have to go with the firearm metaphor.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2008, 11:26:59 PM »

allowed half of Europe to be swallowed into mysery.


Are you kidding? We didn't allow it. We helped make it happen.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

fatman

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2008, 11:52:15 PM »
fatman
again you miss the point
my point wasn't that I don't want to bomb Iran, I do, like yesterday, today, as soon as possible
but clearly you need to imply that I must "like war" or "enjoy war" if I support such a policy
thats like implying a father that punishes a son "enjoys inflicting pain".
nothing in any of the quotes of mine is incorrect or demonizing
by the way thank you for finding them
i am so proud of all those words
they will most certainly play out in the near future
and you are not denying you want to "cut and run" in Iraq are you?
i honestly think you, Lanya and others ignore a real threat
i believe you, Lanya, ect, underestimate a "cut & run" in Iraq
i am not sure exactly why, i tend to think it is naiveness or
avoidence of pain today, many put off a cavity and it turns into a root canal
but also with some it could be the wish "to end the US having the upper hand in the world".
Fatman would you do anything to prevent Iran from manufacturing and stockpiling nuclear weapons?
Or do you fall into the equatement category "we have them so why cant the Mullahs?"




I'm not going to argue this with you.  You're unwilling to apply a scintilla of intelligence or thought to your posts, you want to argue that I implied something I didn't.  How many times have we gone down this road?  It is not my fault that you are unable to read for context.  I have neither the time nor the inclination to indulge your silly and peevish behavior, so by all means feel free to not respond to my posts and ignore them like you do to UP.

And also, the cheerleader pictures are a wee bit immature.  Grow up, you're not 10, at least I don't think you are.

Universe Prince

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2008, 12:06:59 AM »

And also, the cheerleader pictures are a wee bit immature.


Hey now, I thought the photo was the most, er, attractive part of his post. (Yes, I know what he meant, but still...)
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Summer 2008 War on Iran/Syria/Hizballah
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2008, 08:45:16 AM »
and allowed half of Europe to be swallowed into mysery.

==========================================
The Soviets, who bore the majority of suffering in the war against the Nazis, saved countless lives by invading the Eastern European nations rather than forcing the Allies to do this. The US did not "allow half of Europe to be swallowed in misery". What happened was the US took as much of Europe as it could handle under the Marshall Plan, and the Western nations were far more advanced in education and development, richer in resources, and less damaged by the war than the Eastern ones. The US did not have the resources to drive the Soviets out or even to develop the Eastern nations if the Soviets had voluntarily withdrawn, wich they surely would not have done. Churchill was as intent on the destruction of Communism as Hitler. The British people, of course were not, and threw him out as soon as the war was over and he became annoying to the average working stiff.



Do you really think Chechoslovacia was more miserable with NATZI occupation than it was with Soviet domination? They were saved from Hitlerites the way that a tiger might save a deer ,from a wolf .