DebateGate

<<Well said T.>>

Thanks, plane.

<<Do you see any causal relationship between the Holocaust and the condition of Israel? >>

Did you mean the creation of Israel?  Absolutely.  No Holocaust, no Israel.
 
 
 

<<Of course, then you have Tee's upside down alternate reality confirmation tactic, that the lack of any such evidence, proves the allegations   >>

Alas, like all the rest of sirs' demented fantasies, this one too flunks the reality check.  Tee's basic contention, particularly with regard to the potential misconduct of secret government operations, is that lack of evidence does not disprove the allegations.  A distinction that admittedly may be a little too subtle for those reading comprehension skills which sirs loves to disparage in others.

<<Do Canadian Doctors get sued for malpractice?>>

Yeah but Canada has a cap on damages for pain and suffering, it's $100,000 in 1973 dollars, currently about $260 - $270,000.

Does this mean that the Bush administration is willing to accept the same techniques being used on their own troops?

I think it's pretty sad that people would question the Holocaust, and sadder still that anyone would sponsor a Holocaust cartoon contest with the object of mocking the incredible suffering of the victims. 

But if I were to think of the worst features of Iran today, Holocaust mockery would be far from the top of my list - - I'd think of the 16-year-old girl personally hanged by the judge himself because of her "sharp tongue," and I'd think of Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi tortured to death in a Teheran jail, and I'd think of young Bahai women raped, tortured and murdered in prison because they refused to give up their faith.  That trumps Holocaust mockery (which is only a misguided opinion or state of mind) any time.

Holocaust mockers and deniers are found all over the world.  In Iran, Canada, Germany, and yes in the U.S.A. as well, as you probably know.  Neo-Nazis now play Austrian-designed computer games like KZ Lager whose object is to see which player can round up and gas the greatest number of Jews.  It's an inevitable consequence of freedom of speech, and I suppose we should all be glad that we live in a world where even such opinions are tolerated.  Iran did not invent anti-Semitism, the Holocaust or the denial of the Holocaust, and I think as long as there are dedicated scholars and researchers who continue to document the Holocaust, there should be no problem with anyone like Ahmedinejad who calls for more research into the subject.  It is definitely a fit subject for research, the lessons of which are applicable to a wide variety of situations.

JAY AMBROSE: The devil made him do it
Scripps Howard News Service
Published Thursday, September 21, 2006
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(SH) - Until reading about Hugo Chavez's U.N. speech the other day, the craziest reference to the devil I had ever seen was on the front page of a supermarket tab. "DEVIL ESCAPES HELL," it said in all-caps, super-large type. Under the headline was a picture of smoke pouring out of a great, big hole in the ground. I couldn't help laughing.

OK.  So we know the guy reads supermarket tabs.  I guess in Bushworld, that qualifies him a a Jen You Wine innalekshual.

It's hard to laugh at Chavez's speech saying President Bush was the devil, though, because this clown-in-chief of Venezuela is in a position to inflict a whole lot of pain on people -

Yeah?  like killing 40,000 of them in an illegal invasion of their country?

he has been busily doing that very thing -

Really?  Care to specify how?  I thought not.

and it's hard to grasp why U.N. delegates applauded him.

Right.  NOBODY on earth can figure that one out.  It is a real mystery.  An enigma.  Great political scientists and psychologists will puzzle for years over it, but in my opinion, will never be able to get to the bottom of it.

Are they of the same ilk as the ignorant, gullible souls who would buy that supermarket tab to get the real goods on satanic doings? Maybe so, maybe so.

Well, OF COURSE, they are ignorant, gullible souls, they are UN DELEGATES, what can you expect of them?  No educational qualifications, working for minimum wage, barely able to mumble a few basic words and phrases in their own primitive jungle babble, let alone to speak English or any of the other four official UN languages, unable even to hold down simple jobs as agricultural labourers or sweepers, they were given their UN jobs out of pity, through the sheer benevolence of their home countries.

Large numbers of these delegates, after all, represent tyrannies chiefly notable for abusing their own people - sometimes slaughtering them, usually impoverishing them, always ensuring they don't get uppity about their rights - and all the time blaming their national misery on those other lands that have found prosperity through constitutional order, liberty and free markets. They may hold their tongues when genocide is afoot in some desperate country much like their own, but loudly curse the wealthy and powerful United States.

Gee, I wonder which US allies this guy is talking about?  Are these the countries that allow CIA torture chambers to operate secretly within their borders or are they the ones who allow the US to outsource the torture to them directly so the CIA doesn't have to dirty its hands?

<<When Chavez tells such an audience . . . >>

"Such an audience"  This guy is hilarious.  Suddenly Chavez is no longer speaking to the General Assembly of the United Nations, he is speaking to an audience of the representatives of tyrannies that abuse their own people, sometimes slaughter them, blah blah blah . . .   An audience of American puppet dictatorships, some would say, although I'm not sure that was this author's intention.

<<When Chavez tells such an audience that the devil spoke from the same platform the previous day, makes the sign of the cross over his heart and says "this place still smells of sulfur," he is playing to this covetous spite . . . >>

Well that's one tortured interpretation from one MSM whore, unwilling or unable to face simple truths when told straight to his face.  The far more logical and realistic interpretation is that Chavez simply told it like it is, and the world, sick of America's hypocritical, self-laudatory bullshit, burst into spontaneous applause.

<< . . .  hoping his theatrics will win him a world standing that doesn't notice the horrendous mess he has made of things in Venezuela as its president.>>

Which would only be possible if the diplomatic representatives of the rest of the world were so fucking stupid that a simple crude joke about the devil and the "President" of the United States could distract them from seeing a blatant and obvious truth.  In the real world (as opposed to the bullshit world of MSM lies) the delegates are not stupid and there is no "horrendous mess" in Venezuela, rather there is a situation which pleases most of the Venezuelan people, and for that very reason displeases the corrupt and venal Bush administration and its media whores.

<<"I think we could call a psychiatrist to analyze yesterday's statement made by the president of the United States," Chavez said. "As the spokesman of imperialism, he came to share his nostrums, to try to preserve the current pattern of domination, exploitation and pillage of the people of the world.">>

Why bother ushing a shrink on Bush?  A lie detector is what you really need.

<<Was it exploitative or dominating for Bush to call for establishment of a Palestinian state that would exist democratically side by side with Israel? >>

No, I think "hypocritical" and "duplicitous" are what it really was.

<<Was it a nostrum for him to call for strengthened peacekeeping forces in Darfur, where 200,000 have died from hate campaigns and some 2 million more rendered homeless? >>

No, I don't think so.  More like more hypocritical bullshit to take the focus off his own crimes in Iraq and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.  He has no intention of intervening in Darfur, where there is no oil to be found, but words are cheap and American consumers of articles like this are dumb.

<<Did he have pillage in mind when he said Iran deserves democracy and a thriving economy instead of leadership that funds terrorists and seeks to construct nuclear weapons?>>

Actually, whenever he has Iran in mind, he IS thinking of pillage.  That's very true.  Also mass murder and more illegal invasions.  And - - of course - - OIL.

We know how Chavez stands on that last issue because, on a multi-country trip, he stopped over in Iran and out-ranted that country's clown-in-chief, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. In still another instance of using the word "devil," he said that's what resided inside the people of Israel.

That's not nice.  Good thing he didn't say they were an axis of evil too.  Don't you hate it when politicians call other countries evil?  

Self-revealed as an anti-Semite from utterances spoken elsewhere . . .
No examples given.  Naturally.

<< . . .  he [Chavez] characterized the Israelis as "cowards" and "murderers" and called for God to throw "lightning bolts" at them. >>

WHAT?  Just because they bombed the defenceless city of Beirut and killed thousands of Lebanese women and children?  For shame, Hugo.  For shame!!!

<<A nuclear bomb or two would probably suit him fine, as well.>>

Gee, I missed where he said that.  I'm sure it's true though.  This journalist really seems to know what he's talking about.

<<Chavez has one thing going for him back home. High oil prices. In oil-rich Venezuela, they have kept the economy humming, although Chavez's socialist enthusiasms have increased poverty.>>

And here I kinda thought Chavez was using the high oil prices to build homes for the poor and provide them with free medical care. I guess that must be the very definition of poverty.  When you provide the poor with medical care and housing you are "increasing poverty."  I'm glad I read the occasional right-wing article.  They are SO educational.

<<He operates in extraordinary, undemocratic secrecy . . . >>

That's impossible!  You seem to know everything about him.

<< . . .  presides over an outlandishly corrupt government . . . >>

CORRUPTION?   In Latin America??   Get outta here!!!


 << . . . doesn't allow the press to say unpleasant things about him . . . >>

STOP.  STOP.  I can't take this any more.  Is there no God???  Why doesn't the US invade his ass tomorrow??  by no later than noon!!!   This is absolutely the last straw!!!!  Can't he just pay the press to write NICE things about him?  Where the fuck is Judith Miller when you need her?

<<. . . has essentially made the courts and legislature his playthings . . . >>

Wow, THAT sucks.  What happened, did Clarence Thomas move to Venezuela?  Is Karl Rove advising the guy on judicial appointments?

 << . . .has wrecked the lives of ordinary people opposed to his rule >>

Which particular multimillionaire business crooks are you referring to now?

<<and buttresses his populism with threats as necessary, various reports tell us. >>

You mean like threats to arrest people and ship them off to secret torture chambers in other countries?  Aww, he wouldn't do anything like that, would he?   Nobody does that anymore.  It's forbidden under international law.  BTW, don't suppose you'd care to tell us where those "various reports" originated from, wouldja?  Nah, didn't think so.  But I'm sure they're reliable.  (From the folks who brought you "weapons of mass destruction," The Hugo Chavez Story!!!)

<<Those reports also tell us that he has a considerable following and came to power through an election . . . >>

Now if THAT doesn't tell you why you can't trust the people to elect their own leadership, why you must be just another terrorist-loving America-hating Islamofascist violator of the Patriot Act which thank God has given us just the right remedy for people of your ilk.

<< . . .while reminding us that he once tried to come to power through a military coup.>>

Yeah and that's EXACTLY why Uncle Sam tried to remove him through another military coup.  Uncle Sam has a huge hard-on for guys who come to power through military coups.  It ain't right, unless you live in some Latin American country that is NOT Cuba or Venezuela.

<<You might think Chavez is just one more harmless fool, but Venezuelans are suffering, and if he grows in global stature - if, for instance, Venezuela gets Latin America's seat on the U.N. Security Council as he wishes - he could expand that suffering to others. >>

The United States hates expanding suffering to others.  That's why they came to Iraq.  That's why they overthrew the democratically elected Allende government in Chile and the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala.  Always looking for ways to prevent the expansion of suffering to others.  What a wonderful country.  So concerned about the suffering of others.  Loved all over the world because of it.

<<The hope has to be that mature, rational judgments will catch up with him and squash his career, causing him to look for excuses. >>

Yes, like those mature, rational judgments that caught up with Saddam Hussein and squashed his career, unfortunately with some unavoidable collateral damage and some spoilsport "dead-enders" and "Islamofascists" who just HATE mature, rational judgments.  Doesn't that Islamofascist Chavez realize that there are plenty of mature rational judgments just aching to come down there and smash his miserable shit-hole of a country to bits, rape and murder some a those cute little Venezuelan teenagers and their families and torture and murder anyone who objects to the whole exercise?  Oh, yeah, and take over those oil wells too?  Just when is this clown going to wise up?

<<Someone might then tell this lover of devil references about the line used by the late comedian Flip Wilson to escape blame in sketches about his mistakes being found out.

<<"The devil made me do it," dear, old Flip would say.>>

Bush, of course, has the better line.  He's just following God's will.

If he is all that bad , why should the US be so lonely in opposeing him?  Is all the rest of the world depending on us to point out things like these or they will be un noticed?
sirs: 
<<I'm speculating it's because we're the "big boys on the block".  We're (the U.S) is the boogeyman to all these other regimes.  If they can get the rest of the world to focus on that and not eye their own miserable state of affairs, the easier they can maintain their power base. >>

See how easily your question is answered?  The USA is a nation of mature adults, the others are all children scared of the boogeyman and easily distracted.  Look!  Look at the bad Uncle Sam!  And they all forget their own "miserable state of affairs" as their attention focuses on the bad American.

This is exactly what I mean when I say the right wing lives in a world of fantasy and fiction, that they have no grasp of reality, of the real world.   They create myths of a fictitious state of the world, of nations of childish minds opposed to the one nation of serious, mature minds. 

Sirs is not lying, nor is he consciously fabricating anything, when he explains the general refusal of other nations to join the American condemnation of Hugo Chavez - - he sincerely believes the outrageous bullshit that the failure to condemn Chavez is because they are incapable of simultaneously condemning Chavez and focusing on their own problems; that, presumably, by NOT condemning Chavez, they are either better able to deal with their own problems or perhaps relieved of the need to deal with them;  and of course it's contrary to anything that any of us have ever experienced in the real world.  Most of us would know, if we have any dealings at all with people from other countries, that we are dealing with serious, intelligent people who will send as ambassadors to the U.N. serious men and women, most of whom can speak at least four or five languages, have various university degrees and are usually capable of discoursing intelligently on a great number of topics.  IF they did feel the need to condemn Chavez they would be perfectly capable of doing so AND dealing with their own problems at the same time, or even of avoiding their own problems. 

In short there is no relationship whatsoever between the rest of the world condemning or not condemning Chavez on the one hand and dealing or not dealing with their own problems on the other. 

I DID miss it.  Sorry.