Posturing as Rescuers...Uncle Sam's Day of Reckoning is At Hand

[sirs]

These guys simply aren't interested in facts or truth.  All they really give a shit about is the spin.

Oh, the irony.  Projection in its most transparent     

[Knutey]

These guys simply aren't interested in facts or truth.  All they really give a shit about is the spin.

Oh, the irony.  Projection in its most transparent     

RW Peewee brains favorite and usually only debating technique:

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[Plane]

Oh, please.  Stop it already.  Do you really believe this crap?  WHY?

Of course I do , I have reality based thinking.

You can beleive anything you want to , but I like evidence .

The price of oil on the spot market is an auction , if you sell oil for less , it will show up as a reduction in demand and a reduction in the next spot auction , if you try to sell it for more you will loose your customer.

Hungary can sell its uranium to either France or Russia if they want to , I hope that they choose not to sell it to Iran ,  but Iran will get some any way because even when the commodity is very dangerous , market forces are very powerfull. When Hungary was part of the Soviet Block did their customert set the price artificially? That is one of the things that made the whole Warsaw Pact shakey wasn't it?

Oil is sold at auction more than any other way , someone who makes a sweet heart deal to sell for less is giveing up money for some other consideration.

Iraq is starting to see some national income from oil and as far as I know there is no attempt from any American agency to restrict or direct their sales. Got an evidence of such a futile attempt?

[Xavier_Onassis]

SOME oil is sold at auction. Not all, only SOME.

If there are secret deals under the table, and there always are, you can count on them being secret and under the table. Duh.

[Michael Tee]

<<When Hungary was part of the Soviet Block did their customert set the price artificially? That is one of the things that made the whole Warsaw Pact shakey wasn't it?>>

I have no idea how the U.S.S.R. set the price of Hungarian uranium, the point is that they determined where it would and would not be sold and who it would be sold to - - something that you seem to feel is impossible for the Americans to do in Iraq.  And I can't even begin to imagine that the Russians would have had no say at all in the price of their satellites' commodities, especially when they were buying.

It's very obvious that by invading and occupying an oil-producing country, the U.S.A. will be able to dictate the price of its oil, and who can buy and sell it.  I can't understand how anybody arguing in good faith could say otherwise and still maintain even a shred of credibility.  Once the U.S. ends the occupation, leaving a puppet government behind, it's anyone's guess what the Iraqis (including even the puppets) will do, but even Obama is not advocating an end to the occupation.

[Xavier_Onassis]

What made the Warsaw Pact shakey was that the smaller states of Eastern Europe did not wish to be dominated by the Soviets. It was not always a total domination: East Germans had a MUCH higher standard of living than Soviets. Most families had cars, even if they were Trabants, many had second homes in the country. Russians were much worse off. Czechs and Hungarians were also better off economically.

The Russians managed to dominate the Slavic countries better. Czech may speak a Slavic language, but they are culturally German in many ways that the Russians aren't.Slovaks much less so, hence the split.

[Plane]

It's very obvious that by invading and occupying an oil-producing country, the U.S.A. will be able to dictate the price of its oil, and who can buy and sell it.  I can't understand how anybody arguing in good faith could say otherwise and still maintain even a shred of credibility.  Once the U.S. ends the occupation, leaving a puppet government behind, it's anyone's guess what the Iraqis (including even the puppets) will do, but even Obama is not advocating an end to the occupation.

Nope it isn't so at all.

The US sells more wheat than any other grower , but can you say that we are therefore able to fix the price?

I know that only the main part of oil is sold at auction and that it can be sold otherwise , but as long as it is available at an auction it is the auction that will set the price.

How you imagine it possible that the US government would repeal the law of supply and demand strikes me as funny , I hope that they repeal the law of gravity next , that would make vacations on Mars so much cheaper.

Do you think that Obama is thinking that he needs to occupy Iraq for the oil?


I believe you imagine oil being controlled in the way that DeBeers controlls diamonds, but DeBeers buys more than half the worlds production of Diamonds and puts somany on the shelf that they produce an artificial shortage. This situation isn't a possibility with oil. To force the Iriquis to sell the oil for any less than it is worth would be stupid and to force them to produce less than they can would be stupid , we are still spending money there to rebuild , why would we want them to make less money and rebuild less themselves?

  Don't worry about my credibility being harmed for beleiveing that the law of supply and demand really is a law.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Nope it isn't so at all.

The US sells more wheat than any other grower , but can you say that we are therefore able to fix the price?

I know that only the main part of oil is sold at auction and that it can be sold otherwise , but as long as it is available at an auction it is the auction that will set the price.
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The US does not sell wheat. The price for wheat is set by two very secretive companies: Cargill and Bunge y Born. Price varies according to type of wheat (hard winter, durham, semolina, red winter, etc,.) and quality.

Do not believe that the market sets the price. The diamond market is an extreme example of how an industry can furgle the law of supply and demand. De Beers must make deals with the Russians, but that has never been a problem.

Most oil is sold BELOW the "official" price, which is for Brent Light Sweet Crude, the best North Sea oil.
Very occasionally it is bid up by desperate retailers.

_______________________________________________
This situation isn't a possibility with oil. To force the Iriquis to sell the oil for any less than it is worth would be stupid and to force them to produce less than they can would be stupid , we are still spending money there to rebuild , why would we want them to make less money and rebuild less themselves?

This "we" you speak of... does it refer to the US govt., which has one set of objectives, some of them hidden agendas, or the oil companies in the US or both?

The oil companies and the US govt are different entities. The former has SOME hidden agendas, determined by lobbyists and their pals in Congress, the oil companies have many, but their bottom line is high profits and maximum domination of supply.

The most important "we" here is the American people, who would like gasoline for $1.;00 a gallon in ready supply forever. Count on them to be ignored.

[Plane]

This "we" you speak of... does it refer to the US govt., which has one set of objectives, some of them hidden agendas, or the oil companies in the US or both?

There is a good question , so who is the "we " we were talking about who wanted to invade Iraq for its oil?

DeBeers doesn't furgle the law of supply and demand , they use it , by controlling enough of the supply that all the rest of the supply is sold while they are still holding.

If you and I meet to sell each other vehicles we can ignore the blue book , would you ignore the blue book?

[Michael Tee]

Let me modify the statement I made earlier, to which plane responded:

<<It's very obvious that by invading and occupying an oil-producing country, the U.S.A. will be able to dictate the price of its oil, and who can buy and sell it.  I can't understand how anybody arguing in good faith could say otherwise and still maintain even a shred of credibility.  Once the U.S. ends the occupation, leaving a puppet government behind, it's anyone's guess what the Iraqis (including even the puppets) will do, but even Obama is not advocating an end to the occupation.>>

It's very obvious that by invading and occupying an oil-producing country, the U.S.A. will be able to influence the price of its oil (by increasing or decreasing production, alone or more effectively in concert with other producers) and who can buy and sell it.  I can't understand how anybody arguing in good faith could say otherwise and still maintain even a shred of credibility.  Once the U.S. ends the occupation, leaving a puppet government behind, it's anyone's guess what the Iraqis (including even the puppets) will do, but even Obama is not advocating an end to the occupation.

The major oil advantage the U.S. gets from the invasion is to amend the laws permitting Iraq to partner with third parties in the exploitation of oil resources.  It's kind of like letting the Mafia partner with you in a convenience store.  You didn't need them at all as partners, you  wouldn't have taken them on as partners except at the point of a gun, and now you are sharing income that used to be all yours with the mob or friends of the mob.  Good deal for the mob, bad deal for the shopkeeper.

[Xavier_Onassis]

If you and I meet to sell each other vehicles we can ignore the blue book , would you ignore the blue book?
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I would go by the wholesale price listed in Edmunds and KBB.com. If your car was in extremely good shape, I might pay you the wholesale price, or even the average of the wholesale and the retail price. You are not a dealer, I do not deal with dealers, and you aren't getting the retail price. Homey don't do retail.

I would look the car over, deduct the price of a brake job, a new battery and an alternator unless you had evidence of these being replaced in the last year, make sure the tranny had clearish fluid with no burnt smell, and drive it for at least fifteen minutes in city and highway areas. Then I would make an offer as described above.

If you rejected my offer, I would smile politely and tell you that yes, your car is really worth more, but this is all I can pay, and write a price on the card and shake your hand, smile again and drive slowly away.

If you are a typical seller, I would make a deal three times out of four on the first visit, and you would call me back one time in eight.
I am fair, but I am not a fool.

As for selling my cars, the last two were pretty far gone, and I donated them to charity.

I have never traded a car in.I have bought one car from a dealer in my entire life. It was a three year old Renault R-10 and I paid $1500 for it. That was $200 below the retail Blue Book, because in West Virginia, no one bought Renaults from Chevy dealers. It was a trade in on a Vega. I am sure it outlasted the Vega. I drove it for eight years, and sold it for $600.

[Plane]

If you and I meet to sell each other vehicles we can ignore the blue book , would you ignore the blue book?
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I would go by the wholesale price listed in Edmunds and KBB.com.

So even if I had a really good car , you would not likely pay me more than that sort of car was being sold for elesewhere.

If I had an oil well , I might want to sell its oil for more than you were selling your oil for , but could I really keep my customer from knowing what you were selling at?

[Xavier_Onassis]

So even if I had a really good car , you would not likely pay me more than that sort of car was being sold for elesewhere.

If I had an oil well , I might want to sell its oil for more than you were selling your oil for , but could I really keep my customer from knowing what you were selling at?

+===============================
The last car I bought was a 1985 Mercedes 300TD wagon with 168,000 miles.
I found a Taiwanese Coca-Cola exec that advertised it for $3K, and told me everything about it. He said he's sell it for $3K. Being as old as it was, it was hard to find a reliable price, but the wholesale was $2,800 and the retail was $3500. I told him I'd take the greyhound up to Atlanta and pay him the $3K if all was as he described. It was, so I did, in cash. Then I drove it home.

The car before that, a 1990 Benz 300D, was listed at $11,500. Retail was $12,500. I offered $10K cash, and it was accepted gladly and immediately.

I would not pay you retail. If I wanted to buy it elsewhere, I would have gone there. No car is a one of a kind deal, unless you are talking about a celebrity's car, and I don't need one of those.

If I had an oil well, why would I want your oil?

If you wanted to buy my oil, I am sure we could work something out.

If you are a buyer, assume it's a buyer's market.
If you are a seller, assume it's a seller's market.
Act accordingly.

If you are unrealistic, and, say, try to buy a round trip to Paris in August at December prices, you will either have to compromise the date or the price.

[Plane]

So even if I had a really good car , you would not likely pay me more than that sort of car was being sold for elesewhere.

If I had an oil well , I might want to sell its oil for more than you were selling your oil for , but could I really keep my customer from knowing what you were selling at?

+===============================
The last car I bought was a 1985 Mercedes 300TD wagon with 168,000 miles.
I found a Taiwanese Coca-Cola exec that advertised it for $3K, and told me everything about it. He said he's sell it for $3K. Being as old as it was, it was hard to find a reliable price, but the wholesale was $2,800 and the retail was $3500. I told him I'd take the greyhound up to Atlanta and pay him the $3K if all was as he described. It was, so I did, in cash. Then I drove it home.

The car before that, a 1990 Benz 300D, was listed at $11,500. Retail was $12,500. I offered $10K cash, and it was accepted gladly and immediately.

I would not pay you retail. If I wanted to buy it elsewhere, I would have gone there. No car is a one of a kind deal, unless you are talking about a celebrity's car, and I don't need one of those.

If I had an oil well, why would I want your oil?

If you wanted to buy my oil, I am sure we could work something out.

If you are a buyer, assume it's a buyer's market.
If you are a seller, assume it's a seller's market.
Act accordingly.

If you are unrealistic, and, say, try to buy a round trip to Paris in August at December prices, you will either have to compromise the date or the price.

You seem to understand my point already.

You don't mind negotiateing the price , so you are unlikely to pay more than the least you must.

I don't see you accepting a high price from me if you know that the same thing will be sold for less by someone elese , so I may own and controll the commodity , car or oil, but unless I controll all of it that is availible to you I do not controll what you will pay.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't see you accepting a high price from me if you know that the same thing will be sold for less by someone elese , so I may own and controll the commodity , car or oil, but unless I controll all of it that is availible to you I do not controll what you will pay.


Typically, the salesman who wants to sell at a high price claims that he has better service (that's how Hank Hill peddles his propane) or a higher quality.  This COULD be true.

How many people would think to call the service dept of a prospective dealer and ask for an unusual part t see if they have it in stock, or ask for a price quote on a brake job? But that's how you check on service. Quality, well, that's for Consumer Reports to tell me about most of the time.

I don't consider a diamond to be essential for anything, so de Beers' crap won't work on me. There are topazes, rubies and very impressive CZ. The difficulty is that they have brainwashed about 99% of the women into thinking that only a diamond means *true love*

They weren't keepers, anyway.