Author Topic: New Poll  (Read 12449 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2008, 07:01:13 AM »

<<You do realize that the Dolfuss government outlawed discrimination against Jews in housing and jobs in an effort to stem the tide of anti-semitism among the Catholics of the time? Is that where they were like the Nazi Party?>>

Nope.  Never knew that.  It's a good point and it led me to the Wikipedia article on Austrofascism, and the sub-article on anti-Semitism within it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrofascism#Antisemitism

The situation is more complex than I originally thought.  The pre-Anschluss governments of the 1930s were not as bad as I had imagined.  Their fascism was much more like the fascism of Mussolini's Italy but with a stronger pro-Catholic slant to it.  Admittedly there was no evidence of the kind of anti-Semitism that I attributed to it at the start of my discussions with you.

However, support for Hitler, the Nazi Party and anti-Semitism must have been very strong in Austria, much more so than in, say, France, Belgium or Luxembourg.  I base this on the documented persecution of Jews in Vienna following the Anschluss, in which the documentary films clearly show crowds of Austrian citizens tormenting the Jews, also on the enthusiastic participation of many Austrians in the Holocaust, from the top (Hitler, Seyss-Inquart) on down as per the 34-page list of Austrian war criminals previously referred to, the 3% rise in Waldheim's popularity after the issue of his hidden Nazi past surfaced (for which your explanation is lame and absurd) and the absence of any real effective anti-Nazi resistance within Austria.  The factors indicate large-scale widespread Nazi support in Austria, although I am somewhat surprised at the relative lack of anti-Semitism in the pre-Anschluss Austrian governments, of which I had to confess my ignorance.

Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2008, 07:43:32 AM »
<<Are you saying Jews own victimhood?>>

I don't even know what that means.  Nobody "owns" it, but I say that the Jews are by far the biggest victims of fascism, racism and militarism that the world has ever seen.  That's why most of us are still liberals and will always root for the underdog no matter how much material success we may have enjoyed.  WE are the underdog, we understand the underdog and we hurt for the underdog.    Even when we are riding high because we have seen too many examples of how fast the tables can turn to forget who we are and where we come from.  I would go so far as to say that that is really what it means to be Jewish.

<<And did you know my sister is Jewish ?>>

So what?  Probably converted to marry one.  Sure as hell didn't rub off on you.

<<And there is Jewish blood on my fathers mothers side. >>

Field Marshall Erhard Milch, a convicted Nazi war criminal, can go you one better - - his father WAS Jewish.  Jewish blood on the father's side doesn't count, BTW.   Only a Jewish mother (or a bona fide conversion) can make a Jew.  I kind of suspect a lot of people have "Jewish blood."  Doesn't seem to have much effect on them, but I wouldn't write it off completely.  Can't do any harm.  Who the hell knows?  Shalom Bro.  Happy New Year.

Amianthus

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2008, 09:12:02 AM »
However, support for Hitler, the Nazi Party and anti-Semitism must have been very strong in Austria, much more so than in, say, France, Belgium or Luxembourg.  I base this on the documented persecution of Jews in Vienna following the Anschluss, in which the documentary films clearly show crowds of Austrian citizens tormenting the Jews,

Anti-semitism in Europe was pretty thorough - pretty much anywhere the Catholic Church had any power, there was anti-semitism. Just because Nazis were anti-semitic, and Catholics were anti-semitic, doesn't make them automatically support each other.

Oh yeah, BTW, the city of Vienna during the early to mid 30s was effectively controlled by pro-Marxist politics. This lead to a near civil war when the fascists came to power, whose support base drew from the rural parts of Austria. So, that shows that even "your side" (the Marxists) were anti-semitic in central Europe. The Nazi party was supporting the Marxists in Vienna, which led to the outlawing of the Nazi party as well as the Marxist party after their armed insurrection.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2008, 09:34:05 AM »

You know, I realize what the problem is, even though you deny it - Austrians are basically anti-communist, which galls you.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2008, 01:15:44 PM »

<<You know, I realize what the problem is, even though you deny it - Austrians are basically anti-communist, which galls you.>>

It rankles my ass when ANYBODY is anti-communist.  The Taliban, for example - - but I don't call them Nazis.  If they had shown the same participation in Nazi war crimes and atrocities as the Austrians did, that would be a different story.

The_Professor

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2008, 08:02:22 PM »
I simply do not understand your position, MT. Communism as does Fascism CONROLS you unlike democracy. Why would you want to be CONTROLLED?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 01:51:41 PM by The_Professor »
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fatman

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2008, 11:44:49 PM »
I voted for the one month suspension also.  I am another person who tends to visit the forum regularly for a period of time, then drop off the radar.  The reason for this isn't so much that I'm offended, but that my work often takes me to remote areas (can you say Alaska?), and I have neither the time nor inclinations to debate and defend my positions effectively.  As some of you (ami in particular) have probably noticed, I'm still pretty rusty, but I'm working on it.

That said, I'm not sure that there's ever any reason for a purely personal attack that has no basis in the issue being discussed.  A personal attack is a failure of the debator to make their point and has to transgress to petty, albeit hurtful, attacks in order to assuage his/her frustrations.  Just because you don't like someone's politics doesn't mean that you have to attack that person, in fact it has nothing to do with their politics so much as your own deficiencies.  My personal rule in here is never to say to someone something that I wouldn't say if they were right in front of me, even if I don't like them or their politics.  It works well for me most of the time.  I enjoy talking to all of the people in here with the different backgrounds and life experiences, they are people that I wouldn't meet on the street of my town.  And it's nice to see other viewpoints and their explanations, even if I don't necessarily agree with them, it deepens my own understanding of the issue.  So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not for a unilateral set standard of punishment, and I agree with MT that the moderators should be the arbiters of this problem.  Like MT said, if they're wise and committed enough to be the moderators, then they are capable of taking care of problems like Rich, Hoot, etc.  I also tend to think that the majority of the posters here would support their decision.

Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2008, 12:32:02 AM »
<<Communism as does Fascism CONROL you unlike democracy. Why would you want to be CONTROLLED?>>

It's pretty complex, Professor.  First of all, there is plenty of control exercised on you in this society right here and now, so it's not a choice between being as free as a bird or being locked up in a cell,  (although that's the analogy people tend to use who know nothing about communism, in fact life under communism is a far cry from life lin jail.)  The differences are noticeable, but minimal.  For example, when I was in Cuba, it was almost impossible to get foreign newspapers and magazines and the local communist papers were "all Fidel all the time."  I remember once was at the time of a sensational Japanese Red Army (a "terrorist" group) assault with automatic weapons on an Italian civilian airport, and it was buried in the back pages of Granma (the official newspaper of the Central Committee of the Cuban Communist Party, and the widest-circulated newspaper in Cuba) in an article about the size of a small classified ad.  There was virtually no real news either in print or on Canal Rebelde (Rebel Channel TV). 

Communism is sort of a work in progress.  The basic aim is to end man's economic exploitation of man, which benefits only a very small minority of humanity and thus to end the terrible extremes of wealth and poverty that today condemn billions of human beings to lives of poverty, desperation and dehumanization.  To achieve those ends, to build socialism, sacrifice is necessary, and one of the things we have to sacrifice is the so-called "freedom" that we think we in the West still enjoy.  And of course, compared to life under Communism, we DO enjoy more freedom, but we are not really free.  Most of us have to labour a lifetime in thrall to banks, mortgage companies and the insurance industry, eating foods which ruin our health, watching idiot boxes from which all originality and controversy have been edited out and never failing to congratulate ourselves on our "freedoms."  We vote for candidates who all stand for more or less the same-ol'-same-ol', particularly as regards foreign policy or even the domestic economy, in a basically one-party state whose professional politicians have perfected the art of elevating minor differences into major differences at election times so that we can preserve the illusion of voting for a new path or (more pathetically yet) "for change."

Under Communism, some freedom is sacrificed.  Not enough to make a difference in the lives of the ordinary working people, but enough so that an intellectual, artist or writer would definitely notice it.  In return, a society is built in which every citizen has a right to decent basic housing (and gets it!)  Has a right to basic medical care, education, and nourishment (and gets it!)  We have met campesinos (peasants) whose kids have become teachers and technicians, studied at the university in Havana and at technical schools and colleges in Cuba and the Eastern Bloc (back in the days of the U.S.S.R.)   Things to which their parents had never even been able to dream of.  These small things might not seem like a lot to people raised in the culture of excess that is the United States of America.  But they mean a hell of a lot to the billions of people born to live and die in abject poverty, like the Cubans or the Chinese before Communism saved them.

People who live under communism have a choice - - they can work together to build socialism, in which case they are hardly under control, because they are just one unit in a society of units all working toward the same basic goal.  Or, for whatever reason they can choose to become enemies of the people, enemies of the Revolution and of the socialist state, in which case (thank God!) they WILL be "controlled"  and IMHO with whatever degree of firmness is necessary, to prevent the undoing of the Revolution's many accomplishments by the boring of worms ("gusanos") from within.

You seem to place a huge importance on freedom, Professor, on not beng "CONTROLLED."  You are quite right to do so.  Freedom is a precious asset and if there is no socialist society to protect, there is no compelling reason to sacrifice any of it.  IMHO, Amerikkka is much more controlled today than it was twenty years ago and in the direction it is currently headed, there will be even more "CONTROL" exercised over the population in the next 20 years than there is now.  When comparing the relative merits of communism vs the American way, absence of control is a factor very much favourable to the American side of the balance, but it shouldn't be the only factor and there should be some recognition of the fact that as an advantage, it's a shrinking advantage.

gipper

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2008, 01:23:16 PM »
Properly conceived, in my view, socialism/communism is the necessary critique of the liberal, capitalist philosophy. The tug between the poles is the essential economic and social struggle of modern societies. Michael states the case well, but forgets that the essence of a healthy society lies somewhere in the middle, after the corrective ebbs and flows have played out.

Plane

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2008, 04:20:49 PM »
BT has given three choices in the poll, further choices might dilute the impact of the vote.

Yes  6 (31.6%)
No  3 (15.8%)
Suspend for a month  10 (52.6%)
 
Total Voters: 18



As I see this , four fifths of us are in favor of some sort of penalty for the sort of egregious behavior recently displayed by RichPo.


Still leaveing to be decided , what is the most and least offensive behavior to be penalised , that is , where is the trip line.
And indicateing only generally how severely that punishment should be applied.
Twice as many voteing for eventual redemption as for total banishment.

Should we have a vote about whether this system should be a democracy?

Henny

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2008, 05:45:49 PM »
Should we have a vote about whether this system should be a democracy?

Interesting idea - with the moderators voting for a veto if necessary.

terra

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2008, 06:02:53 PM »
Rich is prone to attack.  This is well known.  His "methods" are well known.

As are his buttons.

If one knows that a snake will bite when poked with a snake, or even knows there is even a snake in the bushes, why go near it, let alone poke it?

Not to blame the victim but I generally ignore Rich as much as possible because I just don't want to give him the opportunity to be an ass unless I just want to get into it with him.

I voted for him to be on probation for a month rather than outright banned.  As it turned out, he may have imposed his own sentence; however, as we all know, he will be back for if he were intent on not returning he would not have thumbed his nose as he headed towards the door.

Those intent on actually leaving simply leave and don't return.  Terra has left and returned numerous times always in the same manner.  At Dailykos, they call it "GBCW".  Good Bye Cruel World.  A diarist writes a post detailing the cruelty and harshness of the environment and decrying the perceived enemies of all justice then ceases posting only to return after some period (long or short) of lurking/absence.

I made no GBCW and I am a member of Kos...have been for a long time. I made no complaint about Rich and what you all do with him is strickly up to you. This forum is not one I visit very much, but I was just stopping by to say hi...when I made the mistake of conversing with Rich. You are right though...snakes should be caged, why would anyone want to play with it?

But like I said...what goes on in this forum is for the managers to take care of...I neither asked nor expect for Rich to be banned. You all can put up with that behavior, I do not have to, so I left. I was curious on what was going on with the poll...

Oh and when I left to begin with I wrote no long good byes with any weeping and gnashing of teeth...I just left. If I can not take the heat, that is my problem not yours. And I cannot.
terra

hnumpah

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2008, 06:59:52 PM »
Quote
Yes  6 (31.6%)
No  3 (15.8%)
Suspend for a month  10 (52.6%)
 
Total Voters: 18


But when I look at the results, there are 19 votes...

Perhaps it is a hanging chad...

"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Brassmask

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2008, 07:01:55 PM »
Yes, Terra, but you were notorious for doing GBCW in this forum "back in the day".

I agree that it is not my problem.  I was just commenting on the situation.

Rich is rude and a jerk and you obviously know that so maybe it might have not led to all this if you had just not bothered replying to his posts.  Just sayin'...

I'm for preventative measures when possible.

terra

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2008, 12:10:01 AM »
It's true I would come back...but I was asked.

Most forums take pride in being intelligent and acting with reason..this is one where bad behavior is thought to be  just another voice. Ahh well...not my problem, like you said I should not have talked to him...what was I thinking? having a member that is called a snake and it is my fault that I got sucker punched by him, because I talked to him. But gee he is a valued member...right.
Anyway...hope all have a great 2008.
terra

Yes, Terra, but you were notorious for doing GBCW in this forum "back in the day".

I agree that it is not my problem.  I was just commenting on the situation.

Rich is rude and a jerk and you obviously know that so maybe it might have not led to all this if you had just not bothered replying to his posts.  Just sayin'...

I'm for preventative measures when possible.