Author Topic: Prayer in the Senate disrupted  (Read 4647 times)

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Lanya

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2007, 11:10:46 PM »
Beautiful, Ami.  I like that a lot.
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gipper

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2007, 12:10:04 AM »
Well, allow me to disagree with the venerable rabbi and all others who find that line of reasoning persuasive. The matter is much more transparent; we are not talking about predictions by one of another's behavior (which is a poor way to state the case given the often innumerable contingencies and variables that can play on the studied action). We are talking about the very fabric of reality, and a continuum of time immediate as the the observer (God), who is also the determiner. The human actor, like a stage actor, might go through the motions of choosing (exercising free will) but, in a sense, it is all for the show as the Great Scriptwriter and Director (God) has foreordained everything. Indeed, carrying the analogy one step farther, God is the Marionette and the human is the puppet. This certainly is true at the highest level of consciousness -- and reality -- despite the witting or unwitting action.

That's why this notion is such horseshit. Predestination and its kindred claims have no referant in this world, and to the extent it "exists" at all it exists simply and solely as a theological construct whose utility I never could understand (that is, see a purpose for). I'm quite comfortable with free will and reality unfolding through an infinite series of choices, by every type of creature, intermixed with "fortuities," that is, natural events with scientific explanations.

BT

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2007, 01:04:33 AM »
If i understand your post correctly, you seem to contraict yourself or maybe not.

Either God is the Marionette with a direct interests in our actions and foreknowledge of them or he isn't directly interested, in which case free will and choice play heavily on our actions.

In other words does Al Gore really care if i get 40 mpg or does he care that the national average mpg increase to such a point that carbon emissions decrease.


Amianthus

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2007, 07:12:41 AM »
Well, allow me to disagree with the venerable rabbi and all others who find that line of reasoning persuasive. The matter is much more transparent; we are not talking about predictions by one of another's behavior (which is a poor way to state the case given the often innumerable contingencies and variables that can play on the studied action). We are talking about the very fabric of reality, and a continuum of time immediate as the the observer (God), who is also the determiner.

Feel free to disagree. Disagreement does not automatically make you correct.

Regardless, if God exists, he is not required to follow our concepts of time and causality. Indeed, if He exists, he would be required to exist outside of our universe, and therefore not subject to the limitations of our universe - and our universe is what imposes time and causality limitations. Therefore, God is not limited by the human notion of logic, either.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2007, 11:16:55 AM »
Like Santa and the Tooth Fairy, God has the power to avoid all rational discourse.

To which I say, bullshit!
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2007, 11:21:43 AM »
Like Santa and the Tooth Fairy, God has the power to avoid all rational discourse.

Why should an entity which must, of necessity, live outside our universe be bound by the laws inside the universe?

Do you expect German drivers to abide by the speed limits set in Florida?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2007, 11:32:59 AM »
Again, if your actions are known to God before you act, there there is no free will. I could give a sh*t what Rebbe Whatsit says.

When you say that YOU knowing what will happen does not make it happen, there are two basic flaws.
(1) you don't know what will happen.
(2) you are not the creator of the universe.

There are two reasons why your logic sucks.

If there is no free will Rebbe Whatsit is out of a job,
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I believe in free will because (1) I do not believe that any God exists that can forsee the future, and (2) I seriously doubt that any such Deity actually created the universe, because it is obviously not the work of any rational being.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2007, 11:44:33 AM »
Again, if your actions are known to God before you act, there there is no free will. I could give a sh*t what Rebbe Whatsit says.

No problem.

The next time that you claim to know what any Republican is going to do, then I will say that they have no free will, and you are the cause of their actions.

Matter of fact, since you claimed to know that the Iraq War was about oil before it started, I will now claim that YOU caused the war to happen.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2007, 12:04:42 PM »
I believe in free will because (1) I do not believe that any God exists that can forsee the future, and (2) I seriously doubt that any such Deity actually created the universe, because it is obviously not the work of any rational being.

The universe is rational.

However, since time is an artifact of the universe (technically, an artifact of the creation of the universe), "foreseeing the future" can only happen within this universe, where there is a time vector (sometimes called the "time arrow"). Outside of the universe, time can be viewed as just another dimension, and past, present, and future are just locations along that dimension - all visible simultaneously.

As I said, a creature existing outside the universe is not bound by the laws of the universe. Time as we know it does not exist outside of the universe, it is a part of the fabric of this universe. Before the Big Bang, there was no time. Time was created during the Big Bang, as was the familiar 3 dimensions of space. After the Big Crunch (if it happens) where will be no time, either.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 12:09:51 PM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Prayer in the Senate disrupted
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2007, 03:39:34 PM »
Ami, just blowing the competition away      ;D

*golf clap*
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle