DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on October 16, 2008, 01:18:30 AM
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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/15/233339/43/380/583396 (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/15/233339/43/380/583396)
<<Well, I wanted to see if Joe had made any major campaign contributions, so I searched Newsmeat or a Wurzelbacher in Ohio.
<<No Joe, but there is a Robert, a big Republican donor.
<<I looked him up, who is he?
<<Charles Keating's son-in-law, found guilty in the same scandal.
<<Are they related? So far, I can't find a real connection. But they are both Wurzelbachers from Ohio.>>
by BlueGA on Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 10:46:07 PM CDT
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Let me get this straight. We have a plumber who has striven all his life to buy his own business, but now he is going to be making over $250,000 or more and he just can't manage to swing it without a tax break.
How hard is it to get into the plumbing business? What do you need? A van, some tools, and assistant, and craigslist. Do good work at a fair price and you can get on Angie's list. Get your wife or daughter to answer the phone.
This whole tale does not ring true at all.
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How hard is it to get into the plumbing business? What do you need? A van, some tools, and assistant, and craigslist. Do good work at a fair price and you can get on Angie's list. Get your wife or daughter to answer the phone.
A contractor's license, bonding, state tax forms filed, etc...
It's a bit more than you claim...
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What does an employee or an apprentice with full kit cost?
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I would imagine that you could get a plumbing business started with under $20K.
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I would imagine that you could get a plumbing business started with under $20K.
Is that figure after the required education?
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Is that figure after the required education?
What required education might that be? A community college course in building codes?
You don't need an education to use a wrench or a roto rooter. Please. I have done plumbing. It's not hard at all, except the part where you have to twist pipes in a crawl space under a house.
In any case, to be a plumber does not require anyone to save every dime and to work twelve hours a day until they are "Joe the Plumbers" age. And it is a rare plumbing business indeed that would give the owner an income of $250,000 a year.
If Joe is a major plumbing contractor, he pays himself less, the company provides him a car and he reinvests in his business. Joe the Plumber needs to consult with his cousin, Morrie the Accountant.
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XO is correct. I've never met a plumber who reports personal income of anywhere near $250K. Especially with gas prices being what they are now. Even at $75 an hour, he'd have to put in 3,333.33 hours a year or 9.13 hours per day, every day of the year with not even a single day off, just to gross that sum. And then there would be his overhead to consider.
Even if it's a business, with a good accountant, as XO says, he'll probably never hit the magic 250K if he doesn't want to, and if he DOES go bigger, he can well afford any extra taxation that Obama has in mind for him. How much does the greedy swine really need anyway? And why should HE be fed the extra swill when there are millions of American families in dire need of housing, education and medical care?
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And why should HE be fed the extra swill when there are millions of American families in dire need of housing, education and medical care?
I think the McCainacs would tell you that Joe is going to hire many people to work for him. Of course, job creation would mean he would have to pay other people. McCain was even talking about how Joe was going to pay for health insurance for his multitudinous wrenchmen assistants.
sirs and UP will tell you that Joe has earned his money and should get to keep nearly all of it, because its his and it belongs to him. I doubt they'd want Joe to pay for the healthcare of his assistants, because that is THEIR responsibility. And they should not join a union to make Joe pay them enough to afford health care because unions are BAD.
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What required education might that be? A community college course in building codes?
From the State of Florida requirements to TAKE THE TEST for the contractor's license required to be a plumber:
To qualify for the examination you must be at least 18 years old. You must also meet one of the following requirements:
- Four year construction-related degree from an accredited college (equivalent to three years experience) and one year proven related experience
- One year of experience as a foreman and not less than three years of credits for any accredited college-level courses
- One year experience as a workman, one year proven experience as a foreman, and two years of credits for any accredited college level courses
- Two years experience as a workman, one year experience as a foreman, and one year of credits for any accredited college level courses
- Four years experience as a workman or foreman of which at least one year must have been as a foreman
You can't just walk in and take the test. You must also supply them with a credit report and proof of insurance (which runs about $8,000).
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Bottom line is nobody is FORCING Joe to make over 250K in personal income. If he hates paying the extra tax, he can just take some more time off to spend with his family and let his personal income fall to $249,999.99, on which he and his family should be able to live very well and even put something aside for a rainy day.
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Joe doesn't need to be a contractor to be a plumber. My ex-neighbor, an old Italian guy, had a plumbing business in Chicago and owned several apartment buildings as well. His English was stereotypical movie Italiano and he had trouble reading the newspaper. He made it through the fourth grade in some Sicilian mountain town. He left something like a million to his heirs. He had good business sense and knew his trade well, which he learned as an apprentice. Hell, he wasn't even officially in the country. He dived off a boat headed for Canada and swam ashore in 1928, and never returned. I doubt he was a contractor, but he was a plumber for many years.
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Joe doesn't need to be a contractor to be a plumber.
Any plumber that runs a business requires a contractor's license. In most states, they are required to be bonded as well.
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I heard a tale about a Neurosurgeon who wanted to buy a plane so he went to the local airport and talked to the guy that had exactly the kind of plane he wanted. He introduced himself and told the plane's owner what he did and asked how much he had paid for it After the owner told him he said" Jesus , I could never afford that" The owner responded "I am a plumber and I couldnt afford it either when I was a neurosurgeon!"
Porr joe only makes $250K per year which is peanuts for a plmber I guess. You have to make over $5 million for MCCain to think you are not middle class. How out of touch can one be?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP-0pedQeGw[/youtube]
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Notice how the leftist diminish people? Trailer trash ... plumbing is easy...
It's much like how they treat inconvenient women.
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Notice how the leftist diminish people? Trailer trash ... plumbing is easy...
It's much like how they treat inconvenient women.
Some of my best friends are plumbers and they tell me it is easy cause shit flows downhill.
( Just like McSameastheBushidiot is doing now.)
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Spare me knutty. You don't have any friends.
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I did not mean to say plumbing was easy work. It does, however, not require anything like a major skillset to learn. I know this because have done it: installed toilets, faucets, water heaters, sinks, repaired plastic, galvanized and copper pipes, cleaned out drains and traps. Mostly, it is a matter of technique, the hardest of which is sweat-soldering copper pipes. It is uncomfortable work, and I don't begrudge plumbers what they earn.
But it does not require anything like four years of college, or even apprenticeship to learn, A clever person could learn all that they ever would need to know working with a skilled journeyman in a year or less.
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But it does not require anything like four years of college, or even apprenticeship to learn, A clever person could learn all that they ever would need to know working with a skilled journeyman in a year or less.
Then you need to let your state know that they're over-regulating the plumbing trade.
And plumbing is not as simple as you make it out to be...
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Spare me knutty. You don't have any friends.
I actually have a friend exactly like you. I only put up with him because he lets me screw his wife. Y'all are so kinky.
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Then you need to let your state know that they're over-regulating the plumbing trade.
I doubt that they would pay any attention. I'll let someone else who this is more important to take them on.
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And plumbing is not as simple as you make it out to be...
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I said that a clever apprentice could learn everything he needed to know in year.
Do you dispute this?
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I only put up with him because he lets me screw his wife. Y'all are so kinky.
Do you trade him a goat or a camel for the privilege.
Fact is he doesn't let you screw his wife. His wife lets you screw her.
Unless in your world women are still chattel.
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Do you dispute this?
Yes. There is a reason why every state requires more than that to get a plumbing contractor's license.
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Yes. There is a reason why every state requires more than that to get a plumbing contractor's license.
And that reason is.........?
It could be like the reason that in some states, for every death, there had to be a coffin, even if the body was cremated or buried at sea. Perhaps like morticians, plumbers and contractors have a desire to limit competition. But that would not mean that the job itself is so complicated.
There are lots of illogical laws.
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And that reason is.........?
It's a more complicated job than you make it out to be. I thought that was obvious from my earlier post.
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From the Toledo Blade:
[.........]
Mr. Wurzelbacher told reporters Thursday morning that he worked for Newell Plumbing & Heating Co., a small local firm whose business addresses flow back to several residential homes, including one on Talmadge Road in Ottawa Hills.
According to Lucas County Building Inspection records, A. W. Newell Corp. does maintain a state plumbing license, and one with the City of Toledo, but would not be allowed to work in Lucas County outside of Toledo without a county license.
Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work.
He is also not registered to operate as a plumber in Ohio, which means he’s not a plumber.
Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was hired by Mr. Newell six years ago and that the possibility of him eventually buying the company was discussed during his job interview.
He said it’s his understanding he can work under Mr. Newell’s license as long as the licensed contractor works on the same site.
Mr. Wurzelbacher said he is working on taking the Ohio plumbing contractors’ license test.
Mr. Wulzerbacher’s notoriety has raised the ire of Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, who claimed that Mr. Wulzerbacher didn’t undergo any apprenticeship training.
"When you have guys going out there with no training whatsoever, it’s a little disreputable to start with," Mr. Joseph said. "We’re the real Joe the Plumber."
Mr. Joseph said Mr. Wulzerbacher could only legally work in the townships, but not in any municipality in Lucas County or elsewhere in the country.
"This individual has got no schooling, no licenses, he’s never been to a training program, union or non-union, in the United States of America," Mr. Joseph said.
The association has endorsed Barack Obama, according to Mr. Joseph.
[........]
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418 (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418)
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Mr. Wulzerbacher's notoriety has raised the ire of Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, who claimed that Mr. Wulzerbacher didn't undergo any apprenticeship training.
"When you have guys going out there with no training whatsoever, it's a little disreputable to start with," Mr. Joseph said. "We're the real Joe the Plumber."
Good thing XO has assured us it's a trivial job and doesn't require any sort of advanced training or a much of an apprenticeship...
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A typical McCain supporter, eh? A greedy, fraudulent rip-off artist, all fulla shortcuts and get-rich-quick scheming hiding behind a front of honesty, hard work, and righteousness. Bingo! Couldn't a found a better example of what McCain really stands for: fraud on the American people, beating the system, looking out for No. 1.
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Good thing XO has assured us it's a trivial job and doesn't require any sort of advanced training or a much of an apprenticeship...
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I did NOT SAY it was a trivial job. I said that plumbing is often hard work, but it does not require a clever person more than a year to master.
It sounds like McCain was looking for someone to talk about with regard to his tax proposal, and this Joe guy was ready, willing and able to pose as a guy who was about to buy out a business that he was sure was going to cost him $250,000 or more.
This does not appear to be the case at all. McCain was conned by this guy's tale, it would appear. Still, I would not say that Joe was necessarily an incompetent plumber.
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>>A typical McCain supporter, eh? A greedy, fraudulent rip-off artist, all fulla shortcuts and get-rich-quick scheming hiding behind a front of honesty, hard work, and righteousness. Bingo! Couldn't a found a better example of what McCain really stands for: fraud on the American people, beating the system, looking out for No. 1.<<
Hilarious. Really Hilarious.
First, Mikey the Butcher has no idea who Joe supports. Joe hasn't said. Hell, he was at a Barry revival so one would assume he was at least interested in what Barry had to say. He wasn't yelling "KILL HIM!!" so again, he's probably not one of those rabid Pailn supporters either. From what I've heard Joe wants to eventually purchase the business from it's current owner and then he'd need the license. What a bastard huh? The guy wants to be successful in his chosen profession. What a Big Business Pig!
See a man ask a tough question. See the democrat "truth" squad attack attack attack. Remember that Black woman at the democrat convention who supported Hillary? Haven't seen or heard from her since have you? Liberal own the politics of personal destruction. It's the only play in Barry's playbook. Don't question them Joe. Remember what they did to all those women, Monica Lewinski, Juanita Broaddrick, Eileen Wellstone, Carolyn Moffet, Elizabeth Ward, Paula Jones, Sandra Allen James, and Kathleen Willey. People who get in there way can expact to be thrown under the bus or personally destroyed. Just ask Barry's poor ole grandmother.
Mike, you wouldn't know honesty, righteousness or hard work it if blew up your entire fucking family.
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<<Mike, you wouldn't know honesty, righteousness or hard work it if blew up your entire fucking family.>>
Well, Rich, if my whole "fucking" family were blown up, I'd at least know who to look for.
Joe claims not to have made up his mind. That's fine with me, but the question he put to Obama was definitely coming from the McCain side of the lines. Whoever the guy votes for, when he asked that question, he was asking for the McCain campaign and its supporters.
Joe is a guy who by-passed the state regulations for the instruction and training of plumbers and appears to be working illegally in direct contravention of state laws made to ensure quality control of the plumbing trade. While other "suckas" follow the rules, Joe circumvents them. And once having jumped the queue, is looking ahead to his next step, buying his way into a business that's gonna net him a personal income of over $250K annually. On which he doesn't want to pay a higher percentage as taxes than some schlepper earing a quarter or an eighth as much.
I say, don't even think about it twice. Tax the greedy SOB and at the same time, make sure he plays by the rules just like everyone else. Today and every day.
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Not me Mikey, I'm not going to blow up anybody. There's millions of Muslim's out there just itching for the chance to do it. You'll get what you're asking for someday. Then don't come crying to the big bad US of A to help you out with money, food, protection.
Stick that right in your commie ear.
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<<Not me Mikey, I'm not going to blow up anybody. >>
That's good to know, Rich. I feel better already.
<<There's millions of Muslim's out there just itching for the chance to do it. >>
They better be careful not to get the Muslim family two doors away whose kids sometimes would bag our leaves for us. Since I've worked with them and lived beside them for years, gone to their weddings and funerals and never had a problem with any of them, I'll have to take your paranoia, uh, I mean your friendly warning, with a grain of salt.
<<You'll get what you're asking for someday. >>
Peace and justice? That's great. Thanks, Rich. When?
<<Then don't come crying to the big bad US of A to help you out with money, food, protection.>>
Last time the big, bad US of A came to our help with money, food and medical assistance was in the Halifax explosion of 1917, but they came through magnificently. The City of Halifax STILL sends a giant Christmas tree every year to the City of Boston. Americans are great neighbours. It's not our fault that they're nuts, we try to set them straight, but they just. don't. listen.
<<Stick that right in your commie ear.>>
Yep, I definitely detect some anti-Soviet psychosis here. Probably due to excessive life-long brain-washing. Don't worry, Rich, it's curable. We need only develop your faculties of independent critical thinking.
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Blah blah blah.
Shut your pie hole Maynerd.
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Blah blah blah.
Shut your pie hole Maynerd.
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Do I detect a note of hostility there? Was it something I said? Richie doesn't like to be contradicted, does he? Who woulda thunk? Such an intelligent and urbane young man, and yet . . . so sensitive. So high-strung. Is it that time of month, Rich?
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Last time the big, bad US of A came to our help with money, food and medical assistance was in the Halifax explosion of 1917, but they came through magnificently. The City of Halifax STILL sends a giant Christmas tree every year to the City of Boston. Americans are great neighbours. It's not our fault that they're nuts, we try to set them straight, but they just. don't. listen.
I remember fondly the occasion that the Cannadian embassy in Iran sheltered a handfull of American citizens while the rst of the American embassy was being overrun by wild barbarians.
There are actually several terriffic examples of good neighborlyness in American Canadian history , nice also that they have forgiven us for that Bennedict Arnold thing.
But Canada also sheltered copperheads in the civil war , draft dodgers and deserters in several other wars , as if they were sovereign or something. This could be construed as a service also , from a darwinistic point of view the more Poltroons of ours they take , the more it improves our gene pool.
So thanks Canada , you are a good pal, it is only your best freind that can really tell you when you stink.
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well
back to the plumbing talk
as somebody who actually had his arm elbow deep in a urinal.
i will never say it`s a easy job
same with electricians ,I had to crawl over a dead racoon on that job
telephone-beehives
roofer-angry opposum
painter-wasp nest
you can see why I`m easily detered
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But Canada also sheltered copperheads in the civil war , draft dodgers and deserters in several other wars , as if they were sovereign or something. This could be construed as a service also , from a darwinistic point of view the more Poltroons of ours they take , the more it improves our gene pool.
Canada is sovereign.
I suggest that Canada is the USA's best and closest ally, as well as our greatest trading partner.
The US is unique, and so is Canada. But there is no nation so much like the US as Canada, and none so like Canada as the US.
Like Argentina and Uruguay, we are linked with a common history and a similar people.
I imagine the US gets as many Canadian poltroons as Canada gets US poltroons. They get our pacifists, we get their conmen. Not really a fair swap, since we are way to militaristic already and could use more pacifists.
On the other hand, we got Martin Short, John Candy, William Shatner and John Galbraith. THat has to be worth something.
Israel likes to say it's our best buddy, and it is certainly true that we are Israel's best buddy, but the reverse is not true.
It's more like they are our pet cat, who sometimes pees on the living room rug.
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<<But Canada also sheltered copperheads in the civil war , draft dodgers and deserters in several other wars , as if they were sovereign or something. This could be construed as a service also , from a darwinistic point of view the more Poltroons of ours they take , the more it improves our gene pool.>>
A couple of those draft dodgers we sheltered founded a little company you may have heard of, it's called Roots, and it has thousands of employees. Another is a world-famous architect, many more are prominent in their respective fields of business, the arts and the professions. You sure as hell lost out on your job-creating potential and as far as the gene pool is concerned, you lost out on brain-power and talent, and you concentrated the genes of the thugs, rapists, torturers and murderers who participated in the Viet Nam war and went on to produce new generations of Neanderthal barbarians who are now wreaking havoc in Afghanistan and Iraq, creating legions of anti-American fanatics as they go.
Please, any time you are ready for a new exchange and feel your gene pool needs further "improvement," by all means let us know.
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I imagine the US gets as many Canadian poltroons as Canada gets US poltroons. They get our pacifists, we get their conmen. Not really a fair swap, since we are way to militaristic already and could use more pacifists.
Actually, we get a lot of their doctors. Once they're trained and serve their minimum period of time working in the Canadian healthcare system, many come to the US to get better pay.
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I imagine the US gets as many Canadian poltroons as Canada gets US poltroons. They get our pacifists, we get their conmen. Not really a fair swap, since we are way to militaristic already and could use more pacifists.
Actually, we get a lot of their doctors. Once they're trained and serve their minimum period of time working in the Canadian healthcare system, many come to the US to get better pay.
Excellent , we have a lot of use for Doctors , and apparently Canada has a lot of use for Poltroons this is free trade and a win-win situation .