Author Topic: An Anatomy of Surrender  (Read 10674 times)

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Rich

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2008, 04:37:05 PM »
>>When in trouble,
When in doubt,
Run in circles,
Scream and shout:
"Panic! Panic! Panic!"<<

These are the same people who blamed Bush for not being prepared for 9-11. He had a memo! He had a memo! Yet these people stick their fingers in their ears and hum while jihadists look them in the eye and scream, "DEATH TO AMERICA!"

Fools.

And then there's Mrs. Clinton who vows never to surrender! Unless of course it's against terrorists.

Fools.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2008, 04:49:56 PM »
19 million Muslims for jihad
and that's just in Indonesia

By Michelle Malkin -  October 15, 2006

One in 10 Indonesia Muslims back violent jihad: poll

The details:

Around one in 10 Indonesian Muslims support jihad and justify bomb attacks on Indonesia's tourist island of Bali as defending the faith, a survey released on Sunday showed.

Indonesia is the world's fourth most populous country, with 220 million people, 85 percent of whom follow Islam, giving the Asian archipelago the largest Muslim population of any nation in the world.

Jihad that has been understood partially and practiced with violence is justified by around one in 10 Indonesian Muslims, the Indonesian Survey Institute said in a statement.

They approved the bombings conducted in Bali with the excuse of defending Islam, it added, saying the percentage of such support "is very significant."

While the vast majority of Indonesia's Muslims are relatively moderate, there has been an increasingly vocal militant minority and political pressure for more laws that are in line with hardline Muslim teachings.

The poll surveyed a random sample of 1,092 Muslim men and women.
Now, some quick math:

220 million Indonesians.

85 percent of them Muslim.

1 in 10 of those Muslims support suicide bombings to "defend their faith." (As Robert Spencer notes, "that's just those who are willing to tell a pollster something that they would know the government would not likely be happy to hear.")

So, that's 19 million Muslims for violent jihad in "moderate" Indonesia alone.

Another survey published over the summer underscores the myth of "moderate" Muslim Indonesia. The Washington Times editorialized:

More than two-thirds of Indonesians favor the country's current secular system of law, according to a privately funded nationwide survey by the Indonesian Survey Circle, a pollster. If that seems like good news, read it this way: This means there are "only" about 82 million Indonesians who favor Shariah. Approximately 216 million out of Indonesia's approximately 246 million inhabitants, or nearly nine-tenths of the population, are Muslims. And while Indonesia's religious and cultural climate is justifiably regarded as moderate in comparison to much of the rest of the Muslim world and its government is a very useful ally against terrorism the numbers still leave plenty of room for concern.

Just over two-thirds of respondents disapprove of the death penalty for those who renounce Islam, according to the survey, which was first reported by Rupert Murdoch's www.news.com.au. More than three-quarters of Indonesians disapprove of mandatory head scarves. Nearly two-thirds oppose stoning for adultery. More than 75 percent are against severing the hands of thieves.

When the aggregate numbers of people are factored in, the study looks considerably more disturbing. If one-quarter of Indonesians favor cutting off the hands of thieves, it suggests that upwards of 60 million Indonesians favor the practice. If roughly 164 million Indonesians oppose stoning adulterers, it means that more than 80 million favor doing so.Add those jihadi-endorsing and sharia-embracing masses to these Muslims polled in Britain in July:

13% of British Muslims think that the four men who carried out the London Tube and bus bombings of July 7 2005 should be regarded as "martyrs".

7% agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the UK can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 per cent for a military target

16% of British Muslims say that while the attacks may have been wrong, the cause was right

16% would be "indifferent" if a family member decided to join al-Qaeda and two per cent would be proud
And toss in these European Muslims polled by Pew in June:



Small minority? Only if you use Dhimmi Math.

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/10/15/19-million-muslims-for-jihadand-thats-just-in-indonesia/

« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 05:24:11 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
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Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2008, 05:44:51 PM »
There is a difference between recognizing an actual threat and trying to use that threat to feed irrational fear and prejudice. In my opinion, the article that started this thread is entirely the latter and none of the former.[/color]


All right then , what is the real size of the actuall threat?

Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2008, 05:47:58 PM »

Rather, many or most Muslims are easily persuaded that it is not terrorism at all, but rather a form of qitaal, or combat, simply updated to meet modern conditions, where the Infidels have military superiority -- so unfair! -- and bombs in restaurants and on busses and planes smashed into buildings is merely a form of "equalizing," of leveling the grimmest of playing-fields.

[...]

But it is manageable only if Muslim migration is halted, and funds from Saudi Arabia and other rich Arab states are prevented from being used to build up a fifth column within the Infidel lands through mosques, madrasas, propaganda, and armies of Western hirelings, some of them merely venal, some of them something worse, all of them traitors to the West, who deserve to be seen, and to be treated, as we would have treated those who were in the pay of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.


And there it is, Plane. Most Muslims support terrorism, so the author of the article claims, and they must be opposed as we would oppose Nazis and Soviets. The Muslim Peril. Complete with calls for halting immigration of the offending people. They are different from us. They intend our destruction. Obviously, and I say this with sarcasm, we need to spread fear and hatred of them as much and as quickly as possible. So tell me, Plane, have you joined a non-partisan anti-Muslim league yet?


I have , I work for the USAF.

What part of this do you recon to be the inaccurate bit?

Universe Prince

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2008, 05:57:00 PM »

I have , I work for the USAF.


The USAF is an anti-Muslim league? Interesting.


What part of this do you recon to be the inaccurate bit?


Am I talking to the wind? Sigh. The inaccurate bit would be the part where there is no room for made for moderate/liberal Islam, where most Muslims support terrorism, where all Muslims must be feared, hated and stopped.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2008, 06:13:57 PM »

I have , I work for the USAF.




The USAF is an anti-Muslim league? Interesting.
Quote


Well ,..we do kill people , from the Al Queda point of view how would you describe our tipical victim over the past five years?



What part of this do you recon to be the inaccurate bit?


Am I talking to the wind? Sigh. The inaccurate bit would be the part where there is no room for made for moderate/liberal Islam, where most Muslims support terrorism, where all Muslims must be feared, hated and stopped.

This is why I brought up the KKK they never amounted to a majority anywhere either , but there was a time when it wasn't safe in Illinois to imply that they were less than perfect Christians , the situation of Al Queda is simular as long as they have plenty of support and intimidate those who do not support.

Can we ,as a measure of how many Muslims feel confident in opposeing Al Queda , or how many are serious about being moderate,  see if we can find out how many have counciled calm in the face of Danish cartoon lampoon of Islamic icons? I am certain that no majority anywhere took to the streets in that silly manovre , but no Islamic Countrys Government has yet stood up for Denmark at all.

So there is not only widespread tolerance for Al Queda style goals , there is large scale intimidation also , even where the sorce of the problem is ten percent or so of the total population.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 08:48:20 AM by Plane »

Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2008, 06:30:32 PM »
There is good news to report: The idea that "militant Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution" is finding greater acceptance over time. But there is also bad news, namely growing confusion over who really is a moderate Muslim. This means that the ideological side of the war on terror is making some, but only limited, progress.

The good news: Anti-Islamist Muslims have found their voice since September 11. Their numbers include distinguished academics such as Azar Nafisi (Johns Hopkins), Ahmed al-Rahim (formerly of Harvard), Kemal Silay (Indiana), and Bassam Tibi (G?ttingen). Important Islamic figures like Ahmed Subhy Mansour and Muhammad Hisham Kabbani are speaking out.

Organizations are coming into existence. The American Islamic Forum for Democracy, headed by Zuhdi Jasser, is active in Phoenix, Arizona. The Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism appears to be genuinely anti-Islamist, despite my initial doubts about its founder, Kamal Nawash.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2226


With time, individual Muslims are finding their voice to condemn Islamist connections to terrorism. Perhaps most outstanding is an article by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Saudi journalist in London: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists," he writes, "but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. ? We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2008, 06:51:02 PM »
"Anti-Islamist" Muslims?

Is that like "Anti Jesus" Christians?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

There is not any war against Islam, but the most dangerous thing you putzes could do is claim that their should be.
It is the government's duty to protect the people against terrorists acts. Juniorbush and Condi failed miserably at this and used it as a pretext to monger a totally unnecessary, unwinnable war that has dragged on for five years now. What could be won, in Afghanistan is in peril because they don;pt have the power to fight two at once, and here you fools are trying to monger a third for the same bogus reasons as the second.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2008, 07:34:11 PM »
"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists," he writes, "but it is equally
certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. We cannot
clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become
an Islamic enterprise;


Great stuff Plane.

There is hope for the moderate Muslims to
overcome this scourge(IslamoNazis) to the Muslim faith.

One of my best friends is a Muslim and he deplores
the IslamoKlansmen that are murdering people
all over the globe and bringing great shame to the Muslim religion.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2008, 07:50:49 PM »


The Region: Stuck in the Middle Ages,
Islam targets moderation


April 27, 2008
By BARRY RUBIN

If history works out in the end, the high price paid in blood and suffering can at least be justified as having produced some good. But what happens when it doesn't?

Clearly, radical Islamism and the region's current political troubles have parallels with the European history of Christianity and Judaism. Yet often the nearest equivalents date not from a few decades back but rather from the 1500s and 1600s. That calendar gap shows why the region's task is so monumental and lengthy.

In the 1500s and 1600s, Europe and its two main religions struggled with the impact of modernization, rationalism and scientific thinking; the challenge of new ideas; and revitalized interest in ancient pagan Greece and Rome. Despite much bloodshed and repression, a way was found to manage these contradictions.

Islam and the Arabic-speaking world, not to mention Iran, have still not done so on a large scale. Before there can be democracy, rapid development, social progress, equal rights for women and other such changes, this job has to be done. And the work has barely begun.

How did the West move from a medieval world view into the Renaissance and Enlightenment, and then on into the modern age? That's a complex question, but basically the answer includes:

the confidence that increasing knowledge, even if seemingly contradicting religious dogma, was a way to understand the deity's true plan for the world. The church sometimes acted against science or technology, but not very often;

accepting pluralism of belief, with Protestantism playing a key role in establishing a range of alternative interpretations;

incorporating a pragmatic view in which success was the ultimate test, and practice trumped ideology;

adopting reason as the ultimate tool for living in this world;

a growing separation between religion and state, and room for secularism in the public sphere.

WHAT DOES this all have to do with the contemporary Middle East? Quite a lot.

Not only do regional Muslim-majority states not accept these principles but Islamists, with real success, are trying to turn back the clock even further. Moreover, there's an additional problem: Islamists and even mainstream Muslim clergy know how the story turned out in the West, bringing about a vast decline of religion.

Thus Saudi cleric Muhammad al-Munajid, and many others, sound like Spanish Inquisition zealots determined to stamp out anything new, different, original, or individual.

Another parallel with Western history is the use of the Jew as the demon of modernization, conspiring to subvert traditional society and change as a way of gaining power.

Those who think the problem stems from a need to make Western policy more palatable, showing enough empathy or appeasement, have no idea of the historical processes in play. Consider an interview by Munajid on Al-Majd television on March 30.

Focusing on the threat within Islam, Munajid warns (translation by MEMRI) that advocates of change are heretics engaged in "a very dangerous conspiracy." Why? Because rather than depending on clerics, they claim the right to interpret Islam, are reopening the gates of ijtihad - closed among Muslims for almost 1,000 years - and applying reason to religious doctrine. "This is the prerogative of religious scholars, not of ignorant people... fools or heretics."

Of course, Islamists as well as liberal reformers threaten the mainstream (conservative) clerics' monopoly over Islam. Many Islamists are not qualified theologians.

But moderates are more dangerous, in the mainstream view, since they may loosen religion's hold altogether. Thus, mainstream clerics are more sympathetic to radical Islamists - a key factor in the reformers' weakness and the Islamists' strength. To paraphrase an old Cold War slogan, they say: "Better green than dead."

Islamists and mainstream clerics carry this idea even into Europe itself, trying either to keep the Enlightenment out of their own communities, or even roll back European history. Sometimes they are helped by befuddled "native" elites who have lost confidence in their own civilization.

IN CONTRAST, among Jews and Christians, despite reactionary tendencies, new interpretations were permitted to keep up with the times. This came gradually to be considered the best way for these faiths to survive and flourish. Many of their reformers were themselves highly qualified clerics.

Early Protestants were burned at the stake; others won their rights only in combat. But Europe changed.

Reformers could call for support on nationalism (Czechs and Dutch revolting against foreign rulers); on aristocratic rulers seeking their own interests (Henry the Eighth's divorce, nobles seeking to loot monasteries' wealth); and on peasants' class resentment. These factors play little or no such role in the Middle East today. On the contrary, instead of a way to win more freedom or power, reform is seen as a destabilizing tool used against Islam by foreign powers and culture.

Moreover, Munajid and others know something past Europeans didn't: how far secularism can go. As a result, Muslims are extraordinarily insecure. Munajid warns that reformers "want to open up everything for debate," so that "anyone is entitled to believe in whatever he wants... If you want to become an apostate - go ahead. You like Buddhism? Leave Islam, and join Buddhism. No problem...."

Today, new interpretations; tomorrow, rampant alcoholism, short skirts, empty houses of worship, and punk rock. It begins with freedom of thought, it continues with freedom of speech, and it ends up with freedom of belief.

In England, even when William Shakespeare was young, British universities highlighted teaching about ancient pagan cultures. The first modernist biography of Christianity's founder was published by 1830. Their equivalents are impossible in the Arab world in 2008.

Most clerics and their supporters simply don't believe they can win a fair fight in the battle of ideas. Therefore, only repression will do. Conflict is far "safer" than peace.

This is the real, underlying critique of the West and Israel: that these places are bad role models, against whom windows and doors must be barred. They must be made to seem so horrible as to close the eyes and ears of the faithful to the temptations they offer. An iron curtain must be lowered, behind which the isolated enthusiastically embrace their isolation.

One sees this process at work even in "liberated" Iraq and Afghanistan. The radicals want to roll back the West and destroy Israel, which, they argue, wants to subordinate the Middle East politically and transform it culturally. Most of the relative moderates - regimes and mainstream clerics - want, at a minimum, to hold Israel at bay and avoid a formal peace with it.

Remember, Sayyid Qutb of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood was driven to extremism by his horror at life in 1950s' small-town Kansas. What effect must 21st-century Western life, with its far greater excesses, have?

Today the advocates of "medievalism" in the Middle East have mass communications, modern organizational techniques - and, soon, even nuclear weapons.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1208870505155&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 09:55:37 PM »
"Anti-Islamist" Muslims?

Is that like "Anti Jesus" Christians?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

There is not any war against Islam, but the most dangerous thing you putzes could do is claim that their should be.
It is the government's duty to protect the people against terrorists acts. Juniorbush and Condi failed miserably at this and used it as a pretext to monger a totally unnecessary, unwinnable war that has dragged on for five years now. What could be won, in Afghanistan is in peril because they don;pt have the power to fight two at once, and here you fools are trying to monger a third for the same bogus reasons as the second.



So there needs to be a term specific to the problem , to diffrentiate between the many Muslims who are peace loveing and innocent and the few who are an intractable problem?

Islamo- Natzi?

Universe Prince

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2008, 11:33:00 PM »

Quote
The USAF is an anti-Muslim league? Interesting.

Well ,..we do kill people , from the Al Queda point of view how would you describe our tipical victim over the past five years?


So, attacking al Qaeda is being anti-Muslim? You sure you want to go there?


Can we ,as a measure of how many Muslims feel confident in opposeing Al Queda , or how many are serious about being moderate,  see if we can find out how many have counciled calm in the face of Danish cartoon lampoon of Islamic icons? I am certain that no majority anywhere took to the streets in that silly manovre , but no Islamic Countrys Government has yet stood up for Denmark at all.

So there is not only widespread tolerance for Al Queda style goals , there is large scale intimidation also , even where the sorce of the problem is ten percent or so of the total population.


So you feel we should fear all Muslims then, yes or no? Do you believe we should stop all Muslim immigration? Basically punish people for being Muslim?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2008, 08:53:41 AM »

Quote
The USAF is an anti-Muslim league? Interesting.

Well ,..we do kill people , from the Al Queda point of view how would you describe our tipical victim over the past five years?


So, attacking al Qaeda is being anti-Muslim? You sure you want to go there?
Quote
This exactly what Al Quieda makes as its point every day , we are killing them for what a true Al Queda member , or admierer would consider Islamic Perfection. We don't really choose victims based on their beliefs , but an Al Quieda apologist wants to say we do.


Can we ,as a measure of how many Muslims feel confident in opposeing Al Queda , or how many are serious about being moderate,  see if we can find out how many have counciled calm in the face of Danish cartoon lampoon of Islamic icons? I am certain that no majority anywhere took to the streets in that silly manovre , but no Islamic Countrys Government has yet stood up for Denmark at all.

So there is not only widespread tolerance for Al Queda style goals , there is large scale intimidation also , even where the sorce of the problem is ten percent or so of the total population.


So you feel we should fear all Muslims then, yes or no? Do you believe we should stop all Muslim immigration? Basically punish people for being Muslim?


No of course , but I still do want to have a realisistic apprisal of the situation , not an assessment that is idealised .

Universe Prince

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2008, 07:35:01 PM »

This exactly what Al Quieda makes as its point every day , we are killing them for what a true Al Queda member , or admierer would consider Islamic Perfection. We don't really choose victims based on their beliefs , but an Al Quieda apologist wants to say we do.


Huh. So just exactly when did the USAF begin letting terrorists define what the USAF is?


Quote
So you feel we should fear all Muslims then, yes or no? Do you believe we should stop all Muslim immigration? Basically punish people for being Muslim?

No of course , but I still do want to have a realisistic apprisal of the situation , not an assessment that is idealised .


Do you, Plane, think the article that started this thread or the one in reply #13 of this thread are somehow realistic appraisals of the situation? Because fear all Muslims is basically their appraisal of the situation. The Muslims are either terrorists, terrorist supporters or terrorist sympathizers. And the way to solve this problem is not to engage Muslims in debate, because of course we've been assured debate is useless, but to treat Muslims as cultural enemies, hate them, fear them, shun them. Do you really think this is a good plan? That is will protect us from harm?

There are realistic appraisals of the situation, Plane, but ChristiansUnited4LessGvt, Michelle Malkin and the like are not the ones providing it.

Let's go back to the Yellow Peril comparison. We had laws severely limiting the legal immigration of Orientals and warnings in newspapers about the danger of Chinese immigrants ruining our culture, and on and on, as early (if not earlier) as the 1850s. Did that sort of attitude stop or contribute to Japanese aggression against America in December of 1941? No, I'm not blaming America, I'm saying the historical evidence does not support fearmongering as a practical means of stopping other people from from attacking us.

As for a realistic appraisal of the situation, I am not sure trying to provide one here is worth the effort. For all the talk about how folks who support the "war" in Iraq and the "war on terror" should be considered just having a different opinion without being told they want war, talking about the consequences of U.S. foreign policy in anything less than a positive way has a tendency to result in a lot of insulting accusations. A genuinely realistic appraisal would have to include the notion of "blowback", but talking about that results in accusations of blaming America for terrorist attacks, of hating America, of being some sort of terrorist sympathizer/appeaser. I've had that fight before, and frankly, I think it would be a waste of time to try it again.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: An Anatomy of Surrender
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2008, 05:45:20 AM »
[Huh. So just exactly when did the USAF begin letting terrorists define what the USAF is?

We don't , they do. They tell each other that they are really great religionists in the only true religion and we are killing them for this reason. The facts may be otherwise for us , we don't really care what they say as long as they don't follow up by harming us. There are lots of Mosques in the US and we have not been burning them down .


Do you, Plane, think the article that started this thread or the one in reply #13 of this thread are somehow realistic appraisals of the situation? Because fear all Muslims is basically their appraisal of the situation.

Not the way I read them , nor do I want any restriction on religious freedom or immagration based on religion.

What I don't want is blinkers emplaced , if there is a muslim fifth collum here I want to know how bad it is realisticly , if there is or isn't a large international conspiracy to do us harm I want to react appropriately totally reguardless of whether it is fueled by Islam or not , but if Islam is an important factor I don't want to ignore this ,but learn the truth of it.

It is not the point to generate pointless fear , but to be clear eyed.