Author Topic: Obama throws Israel under the Bus  (Read 162478 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #225 on: May 25, 2011, 02:30:18 PM »
Of course it is...I'm the one with actual starting points involved.  I kinda had this conversation with Plane...feelings vs logic.  You probably shouldn't allow feelings to dictate your conclusions
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #226 on: May 25, 2011, 02:56:42 PM »
I don't know why you keep saying it i9s a non starter.

Even your boys at Townhall have talked about it.

http://townhall.com/columnists/rogerchapin/2010/06/08/threaten_war_to_keep_peace


sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #227 on: May 25, 2011, 03:05:54 PM »
I don't know why you keep saying it i9s a non starter.  Even your boys at Townhall have talked about it.

Anyone can "talk" about it.  Reality is that there's far more a likelyhood of a our sun going supernova than the U.S. set to nuke Israel, as facilitated by rocket attacks ON Israel.  So, the one here who apparently isn't looking for peace as an ultimate goal, is the one making outrageous suggestions at bring about peace in the ME.

And strangely, you STILL as of yet haven't addressed the starting points, I indicated were far more realistic and yet necessary to facilitate peace.  Instead, you keep trying to demagogue my serious attempts, all the while still propping up yours as supposedly serious.  Why's that, I wonder

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #228 on: May 25, 2011, 03:11:52 PM »
You keep acting like Israel would be the victim of an attack instead of the aggressor. Are you aware of the history of the 67 war? Israel preemptively attacked Egypt and wiped out their entire airforce in a surprise attack.


BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #229 on: May 25, 2011, 03:25:21 PM »
Yeah let's talk about your starting points where ultimately Israel gives up any gains achieved by the 67 war, far more concilliatory than I am. And then once an agreement is reach you want to enforce it with UN or Nato troops as some type of peace keeping mission, being very vague as to who bears the ongoing costs of maintaining that force.

My solution is simple. Reach an agreement on borders of the two states and the duo of Russia and the US will guarantee the integrity of both borders because zero belligerence from either party will be tolerated.

And if the Palestinians and Israeli's are smart they would focus more on internal security, ie rounding up potential trouble makers than the external security they are spending billions of (US) dollars on now.

The US has threatened nuclea annihilation numerous times, from the Cuban Missile Crisis to the 73 War where we told the Soviets if they intervened on Egypt's behalf we would respond with a nuclear attack on them. None of this is new.






sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #230 on: May 25, 2011, 04:23:50 PM »
You keep acting like Israel would be the victim of an attack instead of the aggressor. Are you aware of the history of the 67 war? Israel preemptively attacked Egypt and wiped out their entire airforce in a surprise attack.

Are YOU??  The attack was based on the prearranging of the Arab forces, in preparing to attack Israel.  Israel has no reason to attack or even be an "aggressor" so long as there's an established peace.  Arab countries and Islamic terrorists leave Israel alone, Israel then leaves everyone else alone.  Not to mention, that my repercussions include contingencies on Israel supposedly "acting mischievous"

You're not trying to rewrite history now, are you??  You make it sound like Israel, for the sheer hell of it, attacked Egypt.  Is that what you think happened??

Yeah let's talk about your starting points where ultimately Israel gives up any gains achieved by the 67 war, far more concilliatory than I am. And then once an agreement is reach you want to enforce it with UN or NATO troops as some type of peace keeping mission, being very vague as to who bears the ongoing costs of maintaining that force.

Never said easy, just doable.  And the NATO troops are not there as a "peace keeping force"...in fact, they're not even there.  Their mandate, who ever else it is, is also very clear.  They are merely given the authorization to use as much force, as needed, upon the total repercussion references of Command & Control, Communications, etc.  It's to be swift & total.  HARDLY the vague inference of some UN peace keeping force that watches while 2 sides keep attacking each other, while soaking up more tax dollars.   

And here's the kicker......THAT'S NOT EVEN THE STARTING POINT.  So, you either ignored it, or lets give you the benefit of the doubt, you missed it.  Lemme give you a hint, a starting point is that in which something 1st must happen.....a before b. 

The starting point, AGAIN, is that Hamas must remove from its charter, the total destruction and death of Jews and the Jewish state of Israel.  One can NOT negotiate with the other "state", if the others agenda is the death of the Israeli state.  At the very least, the Palestinian President must stand in front of his people and proclaim the right of Israel to exist in this 2 state configuration


My solution is simple. Reach an agreement on borders of the two states and the duo of Russia and the US will guarantee the integrity of both borders because zero belligerence from either party will be tolerated.

....WITH NUKES........(read nonstarter).  If you want to be serious about discussing the peace process in the middle east, I'd recommend starting with a serious position that has a basis in reality


« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 04:30:48 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #231 on: May 25, 2011, 04:35:38 PM »
Quote
You're not trying to rewrite history now, are you??  You make it sound like Israel, for the sheer hell of it, attacked Egypt.  Is that what you think happened??

Yeah i just threw in the term pre-emptively for the hell of it. You really are a piece of work.

Quote
....WITH NUKES........(read nonstarter).

Yeah like command and control won't require body bags. Your solution is half assed.

And i am aware you are requiring the Palestinians to disavow Hamas before requiring Israel to come to the negotiating table.

And if Palestine does and a treaty is signed and Hamas wins the elections again, what then. Oh yeah your NATO forces and a warning ticket until the next time.

My solution changes mindsets. Yours just delays the inevitable.





sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2011, 04:47:08 PM »
Quote
You're not trying to rewrite history now, are you??  You make it sound like Israel, for the sheer hell of it, attacked Egypt.  Is that what you think happened??

Yeah i just threw in the term pre-emptively for the hell of it. You really are a piece of work.

No, the "peice of work here" is the inference that Israel's attack upon Egypt makes them some kind of wild card aggressor, when HISTORY demonstrates precisely those who acted as actual aggressors.  Here's a hint, its NOT the country merely trying to survive. 

Why even bring up Israel's actions in defending their country??  It reinforces my starting points necessary, all the more


Quote
....WITH NUKES........(read nonstarter).

Yeah like command and control won't require body bags. Your solution is half assed.

LOL...yea, because exponentially far more death is preferred     ::)


And i am aware you are requiring the Palestinians to disavow Hamas before requiring Israel to come to the negotiating table.   And if Palestine does and a treaty is signed and Hamas wins the elections again, what then.

SWIFT & TOTAL.  But its not even "disavowing".  It's Hamas publically REMOVING from its charter, that if Isreal's destruction.  That removes the "what then"



My solution changes mindsets. Yours just delays the inevitable.

Yours is a non-starter, mine actually has a chance, as slim as it is, to bring about peace
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #233 on: May 25, 2011, 05:07:38 PM »
Quote
It's Hamas publically REMOVING from its charter, that if Isreal's destruction.  That removes the "what then"

lol, what next a pinky swear?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2011, 05:17:12 PM »
It's called a starting point.  Without it, there'll be no peace.  But cudos on reinforcing how you apparently really don't care about peace in the ME.  Just nuke them all       :'(
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2011, 05:20:22 PM »
It's called a starting point.  Without it, there'll be no peace.  But cudos on reinforcing how you apparently really don't care about peace in the ME.  Just nuke them all       :'(

So you are willing to accept a peace built on falsehoods?
Because i don't see how you can stop Hamas from reneging on their deal.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2011, 05:46:17 PM »
Will, it sure is enlightneing to know that any treaty signed, and any public document put forth between 2 nations forging a peace agreement, is one built on falsehoods.  I mean, if that's case, why haven't they done it already.  They could get a great jump on the PR campaign.  Look how it helped Germany, with their Treaty of Versailles.  Germany signed it, then completely ignored it

So in summation, there can be no peace.  Gotcha.  Sounds like a support for Israel to pre-emptively take out Hamas.  Since there can be no peace, that's the next best thing, I suppose
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2011, 05:55:15 PM »
Quote
Will, it sure is enlightneing to know that any treaty signed, and any public document put forth between 2 nations forging a peace agreement, is one built on falsehoods.  I mean, if that's case, why haven't they done it already.  They could get a great jump on the PR campaign.  Look how it helped Germany, with their Treaty of Versailles.  Germany signed it, then completely ignored it

I didn't say that did I, if so where. I'm sure there have been treaties signed that have withstood the sands of time. And i'm sure there are some that haven't. I am just surprised that you believe Hamas would rescind their objections to Israel and actually stick to it. Kind of like the soldiers in Iraq surrendered and didn't become insurgents or some such nonsense.

Quote
So in summation, there can be no peace.  Gotcha.  Sounds like a support for Israel to pre-emptively take out Hamas.  Since there can be no peace, that's the next best thing, I suppose

Rumor has it Israel has nukes, in case they are interested in settling it once and for all.




sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #238 on: May 25, 2011, 05:57:55 PM »
Quote
So in summation, there can be no peace.  Gotcha.  Sounds like a support for Israel to pre-emptively take out Hamas.  Since there can be no peace, that's the next best thing, I suppose

Rumor has it Israel has nukes, in case they are interested in settling it once and for all.

Since there can be no peace, works for me
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #239 on: May 25, 2011, 06:34:38 PM »
welcome aboard